A question about NFL Recordkeeping

[SeahawkFever]

Hello,

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where to go to find out how many times teams punted on offense, and how many times their defenses forced punts on defense? Specifically before the 1941 season (the earliest one with such totals on pro football reference).

[Throwin_Samoan]

Hello,

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where to go to find out how many times teams punted on offense, and how many times their defenses forced punts on defense? Specifically before the 1941 season (the earliest one with such totals on pro football reference).

Wouldn't the number of punts by a team's punters be "how many times teams punted on offense?"

The number of punts by the six (six!) Rams of 1940 who punted is 77. That's a for instance.

I'd check something like the original Neft, Cohen & Deutsch encyclopedia and see if their year-by-year team totals include punts against. The official NFL guides/record books started in 1941, and might have 1940. I'd check myself, but I have a dog on my lap who's too comfortable to move.

[Throwin_Samoan]

Update: it appears as though while the NFL kept some punting stats as far back as 1933 (when it claimed its official statistical bureau was established), they were mostly team (season and single-game) with a smattering of individual marks (like longest punt) until 1939. I checked my original Cohen, Neft & Deutsch and it has no individual punting stats prior to 1939 and no team stats in the pre-war period.

The NFL’s 1941 Roster & Record Manual (the first one) has only spartan records (and only punts/averages/long for individuals from the 1940 season). The 1942 book layered on some more (Parker Hall’s 58 punts for Cleveland in 1939 was the single-season record, followed by Hall’s 57 the next year), though entries from 1935 and 1938 exist under “Longest Punt.”

Team punting records show up for the first time in 1942, with entries for most and fewest in a season and a game (as well as most by both teams in one game - 31), and some of those entries date back as far as 1933.

But it appears as though punting records are sketchy prior to 1938 and only gradually get better over the next 20 years or so. (Fair catches may have been kept, but weren’t published until the 1960s, for instance.) It may be that without the grace of thorough local newspaper coverage and game-by-game searches, you are out of luck.

Football was slow to embrace record-keeping. Some things simply don’t exist.

[Throwin_Samoan]

Final word:

The 1977 Bears Media Guide notes that "Complete seasonal (punting) statistics began in 1939, although frequently during the period 1933-1938 individual and/or team punting totals are listed on official score blanks. Such game totals are included as official records, where applicable."

Anything before 1939 is going to be haphazard at best.

[SeahawkFever]

Final word:

The 1977 Bears Media Guide notes that "Complete seasonal (punting) statistics began in 1939, although frequently during the period 1933-1938 individual and/or team punting totals are listed on official score blanks. Such game totals are included as official records, where applicable."

Anything before 1939 is going to be haphazard at best.

First off, thank you for replying to me.

I was already aware the pro football reference has punting statistics for individual players for the 1939 and 1940 seasons. From there we have totals for how many times a team punted on offense.

What I was curious about is if totals for the number of punts that each team forced on defense in 1939 and 1940 exist.

Like the punting against table on this screen: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 41/opp.htm

[Throwin_Samoan]

What I was curious about is if totals for the number of punts that each team forced on defense in 1939 and 1940 exist.

They apparently do not. In the absence of original scoresheets, and with a paucity of re-created gamebooks/statistics from 1939/1940, you're left with contemporaneous newspaper accounts. Looking at just the first 1939 game between the Cardinals and Lions, neither the Chicago Tribune nor Detroit Free Press had that level of statistical detail. It would be quite the undertaking to find that information.

The somewhat larger question is why anyone would need this information, or what it would supposedly show. And even beyond that, the numbers that exist....do we really believe the Bears averaged 4.5 yards per punt in 1941? Or that their opponents averaged 4.2? A chart like that does more harm than good if it has partial data in it.

[CliffChristl]

It's a fascinating question and one that David Neft, who I believe belongs on the Mount Rushmore of pro football historians, and Eric Goska, the preeminent authority on Packers statistics, have researched about as thoroughly possible based on old newspaper play-by-plays, none of which were more thorough than the Green Bay Press-Gazette's starting in 1923.
It's also a subject that I've researched thoroughly as Packers historian because of Verne Lewellen. Having read every bylined game story in the Press-Gazette, most of those in the two Milwaukee papers, and the hometown papers of the opposing teams during his years with the Packers, 1924-32, allowed me to grasp why teammates of his who remained in the Green Bay area and closely followed the Packers through the Hinkle-Hutson years considered Lewellen the greatest Packer of the Lambeau years. Or at least the equal of Hinkle. Along with being a great, quadruple-threat back, Lewellen was singled out in game story after game story in out-of-town papers as the most dominant player on the field during the years when the Packers emerged as a league power and eventual three-time champion. Basically, punters pre-1933 dictated the outcome of most games. For the most part, still operating under the APFA's original rules (college rules), two-thirds of the NFL teams averaged fewer than seven points a game in 1926, when Lewellen replaced another good punter Cub Buck after sharing duties in 1925. In 1929, when the Packers won their first title, they outscored their opponents, 198-22. Only four of 12 teams averaged more than 9 points per game. Even in college at Nebraska, Lewellen was the dominant force in most of his games. For example, Notre Dame's "Four Horsemen" teams of 1922-23 were 17-2-1. Both losses were to Nebraska (Scores: 14-6, 14-7) and Lewellen's punting, in large part, was the difference.
Some stats from Neft, Goska, pre-1933, when the ball was fatter, a premium was placed on coffin-corner punts because there were no hashmarks (I have a picture of a play from scrimmage where the ball was so close to the sideline that the three offensive players to the right of the center could barely squeeze together inside the out-of-bounds marker) and passes had to be thrown from more than 5 yards behind the line.
Example of Lewellen's punts in Packers first championship season:
1929: 85 (The down when he punted: 1st: 24; 2nd: 8; 3rd: 27; 4th: 25; Unknown: 1; Punts Returned: 25 for 151 yards, a 6.0 average)
(Note: That's why Lewellen's averages compiled by Neft might not be that impressive. On 20 percent of his punts, the Packers had the ball in opponents' territory. The line of scrimmage on one of his punts was the opponent's 19-yard line.)
1928: Lewellen punted 136 times, while the Packers made 3 field goals (The record for most punts in a season since 1939 is 114)
Goska's numbers for the Packers punts from 1931-38:
1931 – Total Punts: 126 (Down: 1st, 22; 2nd, 18; 3rd, 46; 4th, 40) Note: Lewellen shares punting with Johnny Blood
1932 – Total Punts: 164 (Down: 1st, 38; 2nd, 29; 3rd, 49; 4th, 47) Note: Hinkle and Herber replace Lewellen as primary punter
Major rule changes before 1933 season minimize the importance of punting, including passing from anywhere behind the line, 10-yard hashmarks, goal posts moved to the goal line to encourage field goals; plus a slimmer ball for passing)
1933: Total Punts: 143 (Down: 1st, 32; 2nd, 30; 3rd, 25; 4th, 56) Note: Packers punt more on fourth down for first time
1934: Total Punts: 106 (Down: 1st, 9; 2nd, 10; 3rd, 55; 4th: 26)
1935: Total Punts: 102 (Down: 1st, 12; 2nd, 12; 3rd, 28; 4th, 49)
1936: Total Punts: 73 (Down: 1st, 4; 2nd, 3; 3rd, 18; 4th, 37) Note: Packers punt more on fourth down than all other downs combined for first time
1937: Total Punts: 75 (Down: 1st, 2; 2nd, 6; 3rd, 10; 4th: 39)
1938: Total Punts: 72 (Down: 1st, 4; 2nd, 5; 3rd, 15; 4th: 47)
If you're interested, Google: Cliff Christl, packers.com, Notre Dame Box and look for Part II especially, which starts with a graphic or Goska's first half play-by-play of the Sept. 6, 1926 Packer-Bear, 6-6 tie, where Lewellen punted nine times on first down in the first half and 18 times total.
Keep in mind, Lambeau ran the Notre Dame box and was a disciple of Knute Rockne, who adhered to his own strict rules about punting and almost never varied from them.
This was included in Notre Dame Box, Part II;
In an article written for the Athletic Journal in 1921 titled “Field Tactics,” Rockne explained how he divided the field into “transverse divisions or zones and longitudinal belts” and stuck to his basic philosophy in each zone during a game. The “Danger Zone” was between the goal line and 20-yard line, and it automatically called for a punt on first down. Next was the “Transitional Running Zone,” between a team’s own 20 and 40-yard lines, and it called for a punt on second or third down. It wasn’t until his teams reached the 40, where Rockne considered it safe to open up his offense.

[SeahawkFever]

It's a fascinating question and one that David Neft, who I believe belongs on the Mount Rushmore of pro football historians, and Eric Goska, the preeminent authority on Packers statistics, have researched about as thoroughly possible based on old newspaper play-by-plays, none of which were more thorough than the Green Bay Press-Gazette's starting in 1923.
It's also a subject that I've researched thoroughly as Packers historian because of Verne Lewellen. Having read every bylined game story in the Press-Gazette, most of those in the two Milwaukee papers, and the hometown papers of the opposing teams during his years with the Packers, 1924-32, allowed me to grasp why teammates of his who remained in the Green Bay area and closely followed the Packers through the Hinkle-Hutson years considered Lewellen the greatest Packer of the Lambeau years. Or at least the equal of Hinkle. Along with being a great, quadruple-threat back, Lewellen was singled out in game story after game story in out-of-town papers as the most dominant player on the field during the years when the Packers emerged as a league power and eventual three-time champion. Basically, punters pre-1933 dictated the outcome of most games. For the most part, still operating under the APFA's original rules (college rules), two-thirds of the NFL teams averaged fewer than seven points a game in 1926, when Lewellen replaced another good punter Cub Buck after sharing duties in 1925. In 1929, when the Packers won their first title, they outscored their opponents, 198-22. Only four of 12 teams averaged more than 9 points per game. Even in college at Nebraska, Lewellen was the dominant force in most of his games. For example, Notre Dame's "Four Horsemen" teams of 1922-23 were 17-2-1. Both losses were to Nebraska (Scores: 14-6, 14-7) and Lewellen's punting, in large part, was the difference.
Some stats from Neft, Goska, pre-1933, when the ball was fatter, a premium was placed on coffin-corner punts because there were no hashmarks (I have a picture of a play from scrimmage where the ball was so close to the sideline that the three offensive players to the right of the center could barely squeeze together inside the out-of-bounds marker) and passes had to be thrown from more than 5 yards behind the line.
Example of Lewellen's punts in Packers first championship season:
1929: 85 (The down when he punted: 1st: 24; 2nd: 8; 3rd: 27; 4th: 25; Unknown: 1; Punts Returned: 25 for 151 yards, a 6.0 average)
(Note: That's why Lewellen's averages compiled by Neft might not be that impressive. On 20 percent of his punts, the Packers had the ball in opponents' territory. The line of scrimmage on one of his punts was the opponent's 19-yard line.)
1928: Lewellen punted 136 times, while the Packers made 3 field goals (The record for most punts in a season since 1939 is 114)
Goska's numbers for the Packers punts from 1931-38:
1931 – Total Punts: 126 (Down: 1st, 22; 2nd, 18; 3rd, 46; 4th, 40) Note: Lewellen shares punting with Johnny Blood
1932 – Total Punts: 164 (Down: 1st, 38; 2nd, 29; 3rd, 49; 4th, 47) Note: Hinkle and Herber replace Lewellen as primary punter
Major rule changes before 1933 season minimize the importance of punting, including passing from anywhere behind the line, 10-yard hashmarks, goal posts moved to the goal line to encourage field goals; plus a slimmer ball for passing)
1933: Total Punts: 143 (Down: 1st, 32; 2nd, 30; 3rd, 25; 4th, 56) Note: Packers punt more on fourth down for first time
1934: Total Punts: 106 (Down: 1st, 9; 2nd, 10; 3rd, 55; 4th: 26)
1935: Total Punts: 102 (Down: 1st, 12; 2nd, 12; 3rd, 28; 4th, 49)
1936: Total Punts: 73 (Down: 1st, 4; 2nd, 3; 3rd, 18; 4th, 37) Note: Packers punt more on fourth down than all other downs combined for first time
1937: Total Punts: 75 (Down: 1st, 2; 2nd, 6; 3rd, 10; 4th: 39)
1938: Total Punts: 72 (Down: 1st, 4; 2nd, 5; 3rd, 15; 4th: 47)
If you're interested, Google: Cliff Christl, packers.com, Notre Dame Box and look for Part II especially, which starts with a graphic or Goska's first half play-by-play of the Sept. 6, 1926 Packer-Bear, 6-6 tie, where Lewellen punted nine times on first down in the first half and 18 times total.
Keep in mind, Lambeau ran the Notre Dame box and was a disciple of Knute Rockne, who adhered to his own strict rules about punting and almost never varied from them.
This was included in Notre Dame Box, Part II;
In an article written for the Athletic Journal in 1921 titled “Field Tactics,” Rockne explained how he divided the field into “transverse divisions or zones and longitudinal belts” and stuck to his basic philosophy in each zone during a game. The “Danger Zone” was between the goal line and 20-yard line, and it automatically called for a punt on first down. Next was the “Transitional Running Zone,” between a team’s own 20 and 40-yard lines, and it called for a punt on second or third down. It wasn’t until his teams reached the 40, where Rockne considered it safe to open up his offense.

Thank you for informing me of these totals. I'd heard of Lewellan, but I didn't know he could punt.

Out of curiosity, do these sources count how many times the other team punted against the Packers?

To clarify, I thought of an NFL team performance metric, and the number of punts on both sides of the ball is required to get a reasonable calculation.

[CliffChristl]

I asked Eric Goska if he had any numbers that might help you, and I'll post them here. First, if Eric is right about what you might be looking for, he's also correct in what he states about pre-1933 punting stats. Punting had little to do with the opposing team's defense. It was all about gaining an edge in field position. That was why Lewellen was such a dominant player, and the Packers were so successful particularly in the five years he was healthy and able to play nearly 60 minutes a game (1926-30). The reason he punted so often on first, second and third down was to gain 5, 10 yards at a time in the exchange of punts. Then, eventually, the Packers would have the ball deep inside their opponent's territory with a chance to score when a TD and extra point or certainly two scores was enough to win most games, I believe. (That would be an interesting research project for the numbers people. How many games prior to 1933 was one touchdown or one touchdown and an extra point or any number of scores adding up to 10 or 12 (two touchdowns) good enough to win.

Anyway, here was Goska's response when I forwarded him your question:
After a quick read at the forum, I think he is after the number of times a team punted in a season and the number of times that team's opponents punted against them in the same season.

Example: In 1981, GB punted 84 times and its opponents punted 69 times, a difference of 15. My guess is he is trying to come up with a metric that shows that if a team punted fewer times than its opponents that is a positive. The greater the difference, the better.

If true, what he is after does not apply to pro football in the 1920s and maybe for a few years thereafter. A team often punted not because its offense had been stopped or because the opposing defense was stout, it punted to pin an opponent deep and force a turnover on which to capitlize. I have seen a number of examples where GB started to move the ball, picked up a couple of first downs and suddenly punted rather than continue on offense. A whole different ball game back then.

Example: in that Bears game from Sept. 1926, GB punted 9 times in the first quarter not because of what Chicago's defense did (and certainly not because of the ineptness of GB's offense because it remained under wraps), GB punted because its game plan called for forcing the Bears to play from deep within Chicago territory.

All that said, I can calculate how often GB's opponents punted against them for a given year. Let me pick one for which I have complete data and get that to you this weekend.

And here are some numbers he compiled for you. Hope this helps.
I'm comfortable sharing punting stats for and against the Packers from 1935-38.

1935 GB 102 punts, Opponents 113
1936 GB 88 punts, Opponents 103
1937 GB 75, Opponents 97
1938 GB 72, Opponents 80

The number of punts in 1936 by GB (88) differs from the 73 I gave you because in some cases a GB punt occurred, but I could not determine on which down it happened.

[rhickok1109]

This is what Johnny Blood told me about Lewellen:
"I still haven't seen anybody who could punt the ball like Lewellen. He kicked it deep and very high, so there was just never any chance for a return. They talk about the kicking game now, but it was even more important in some of those low scoring games we had, especially toward the end, when everybody was getting worn out. If you could out-kick the other team by five or ten yards, you could practically march for a touchdown just by exchanging punts. And he was accurate, just great at the coffin corner kick."