Andy Reid vs Tom Landry vs Don Shula

[74_75_78_79_]

Outstanding knowledge-droppings, gang!

Great, real complex and informative and educational comments!

Even if it's not 33-infinite-3/33-infinite-3/33-infinite-3 according to general consensus, still a threesome worth discussing.

And those three QBs - Bob, Roger, Patrick...


The thing is, though...as soon as Andy win yet another SB or two - he 'graduates' from this convo (even if he's not quite at all Hoodie yet)!

[JuggernautJ]

Landry felt even in retirement that the flex could still work today if it was coached and utilized properly. You dont see all the gaps filled anymore by defenses these days which takes the guessing from offenses about who is rushing and who will drop back in coverages ...

And Alexander felt the Phalanx would still work today if deployed correctly...

[racepug]

placing many champions above '72 just because of their easy schedule. Yes, maybe a few of the best-of-the-bests I may still place above them.

That's what I've always thought. Sure, nobody else has gone unbeaten (through an entire season), since, but do people REALLY believe that some other championship teams couldn't have beaten the '72 Dolphins? Personally, I think the '84 49ers and the '85 Bears could BOTH have beaten the '72 Dolphins. 'Course, that's only my belief but nobody has any way of proving me wrong, either.

[74_75_78_79_]

placing many champions above '72 just because of their easy schedule. Yes, maybe a few of the best-of-the-bests I may still place above them.

That's what I've always thought. Sure, nobody else has gone unbeaten (through an entire season), since, but do people REALLY believe that some other championship teams couldn't have beaten the '72 Dolphins? Personally, I think the '84 49ers and the '85 Bears could BOTH have beaten the '72 Dolphins. 'Course, that's only my belief but nobody has any way of proving me wrong, either.

What would you, and the others in here, see as Shula's best-coached season of his career? Continuing in my giving more kudos to those '72 Dolphins, I think I'll have to say that very season!

Going undefeated and untied is obviously real difficult! Only Paul Brown ever did it. Especially considering Griese was out a good part of the campaign. Putting Griese back in during the AFCCG wasn't an un-gutsy decision considering the still-unbeaten-untied/"if its not broken" momentum under Earl Morrall. And the severe pressure he must have been under going into SBVII! His last big game vs George Allen resulted in that lopsided play-in finale loss five years earlier to his Rams when he was still in Baltimore. Yet he finishes the job! And it would take another 46 years until a runner-up would go back to the SB and win it this time! Obviously a tough accomplishment as well.

But unlike Landry and Reid, there are still plenty of alternate 'candidates' you could argue for. You got 1970, he immediately leading a bad team to the playoffs. Going back in '73 and repeating, and in dominant fashion, is another. Going 10-4 in '75 without Csonka, Kiick, and Warfield, bringing Wood-Strock to the SB in '82, and - as someone here mentioned - Bill Walsh having a newfound appreciation for him in bringing what he thought was a 9-7 ("just"-Marino) team all the way to the SB at 14-2.

Again, though, my personal pick is 17-0-0 in 1972!

What's Landry and Reid's best-coached season? Not too many 'candidates' to choose from.

1975 should be the obvious #1 with '80 at #2 and that's about it. Each were supposed to regress. Yet, in 'Year One' without Staubach, he still 'miracle's his way to an NFCCG but '75, of course, even quite better! After their own divisional round 'Miracle', they not only win the conference, but do so by squashing the 12-2 Rams in LA! And then they give, IMO, the Best Team of All-Time everything they could possibly handle (perhaps a slightly better-timed Percy Howard end zone jump away). A supreme MASSIVE over-achievement! Which is what makes SBX the Eternal Classic it is! And will always be.

Reid's best? 2013 beyond-obviously! His first year in KC, they were 2-14 the previous year, and he goes 11-5! 2000, I guess, can be seen as an honorable mention. His second year in Philly with an 11-5 playoff berth and convincing 1st-Rd win over Dungy's Bucs, 21-3. Plus, I really liked that onside-kick on the very first play in the opener at Big D! Nice touch! And sign of confidence, and winning ways, to come!

Any other candidates? Propelling his 9-6-1 squad to the NFCCG (and almost winning it) in 2008?


Yes, a personal Top Ten HCs list, if I ever do one again, very likely will be different. This is (still) it so far...

1) Vince, 2a)Hoodie, 2b)Brown, 4) Papa Bear,

5) Noll (with potential to crash-in at any time, as many spots up as possible

6) Walsh, 7a) Gibbs, 7b) Tuna, 9-tie) Shula/Landry

And then there IS Andy. And Steve Owen.

And then there's CURLY who - upon further thought - I should not 'restrict' due to his lack of contender-ship post WWII. Not really fair. SIX World Championships! One of just three (Guy & Vince the others) to win three-straight NFL Championships. And both he - and Guy (twice) - went undefeated, though ties still factored into the equation for both.

And Guy should, at the very least, be allowed to take a whiff of the Top Ten, I'd think! The League in its sheer infancy at the time but still. Had the Hall of Fame had its first induction after the 1929 season - and only ONE could get into that inaugural class - come on! Who else would it be??

Sadly, Tuna may not be in my next 'edition'.

And as for Shula. Tying both he and Landry understandable. Landry DID beat him well in SBVI. But not only did I make an error OP of this thread in stating that both have an 'extra' conference championship over Andy, I failed to point out '68 - and also '64! Basically two extra 'Super Bowl' appearances. Should I even tie Landry with Shula after all?

But, again, if Reid wins his third SB (and then especially a 4th), he ought to graduate from this convo anyway.

A real tough exercise, my next 'Top Ten' HCs of All-Time will be! Am I missing any other possible break-in candidate?

[Brian wolf]

I actually think Reids best job might have been 2018. They were strong all year in Mahomes first full season and explosive. They beat the Colts and sent Luck into retirement before losing a great championship game to NE, where neutral zone infractions cost them the win. I think they would have beaten the Rams in the SB but Brady and the NE team put alot of pressure on them and they couldnt complete the comeback.

2001 was a great job in Philly as well, as McNabb got the Eagles to their first NFC championship game since 1980. They had their chance to beat the Rams but fizzled at the end. Schemes or not, they still needed more weapons to get to the SB, which finally happened with Owens in 2004, though he lost interest in 2005.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

Okay, I"m late to the party on this one so maybe I missed it skimming over everyone's comments - Landry didn't just invent the Flex but he also created the 4-3. Or at least was the first to really make it effective. A lot of people will just flat out say that Landry invented it.

I like Andy Reid, but I don't think he's at the level of Shula and Landry, and I give Landry nods over Shula for several reasons. I don't think Reid could get to a Super Bowl with the equivalent of Craig Morton or David Woodley/Don Strock like the other two. Plus, don't forget that Shula had an undefeated season with his BACKUP quarterback for most of 1972.

Shula didn't start exactly with an expansion team, but the Dolphins were close - I mean, he took over in their 4th or 5th year. But I'd take Landry over Shula. Landry beat Shula in the Super Bowl. Landry was way ahead in terms of computers as brought up before, he also was an innovator on both offense and defense. Shula lost big games with the Colts to the Jets and Browns. Landry's only championship losses were to Lombardi and Noll. Weeb and Collier were excellent coaches, but not the same level. Plus, the Landry losses to the Packers were really close - down to the end. Same with the Steelers games. Shula made only one SB with perhaps the best QB of all-time. He also lost the 64 Championship with perhaps the other best QB of all-time. I love Roger Staubach, but he's not quite up there at that level. Also, people forget Landry drafted Michael Irvin even. Do the Cowboys win 3 SBs without him? And I also think Arnsbarger had a bit more to do with Shula's success than Landry's assistants, great as they were as well.

This is all splitting hairs between Landry and Shula - and Landry wasn't perfect - but I do think Landry is a clear winner. Shula's one of the greatest coaches in the history of the game. I'd pick him over 99% of coaches, but in this case, Landry.

Andy Reid is on a lower tier, IMO.

[Bryan]

But I'd take Landry over Shula. Landry beat Shula in the Super Bowl. Landry was way ahead in terms of computers as brought up before, he also was an innovator on both offense and defense. Shula lost big games with the Colts to the Jets and Browns. Landry's only championship losses were to Lombardi and Noll. Weeb and Collier were excellent coaches, but not the same level. Plus, the Landry losses to the Packers were really close - down to the end. Same with the Steelers games. Shula made only one SB with perhaps the best QB of all-time. He also lost the 64 Championship with perhaps the other best QB of all-time. I love Roger Staubach, but he's not quite up there at that level. Also, people forget Landry drafted Michael Irvin even. Do the Cowboys win 3 SBs without him? And I also think Arnsbarger had a bit more to do with Shula's success than Landry's assistants, great as they were as well.

These are all valid points. I get that Shula endured several big upsets in the postseason, but I don't really knock Shula for losing to Landry in the Super Bowl. Dallas had a huge edge in experience over the Dolphins. I think that would have been expecting quite a bit to think that Shula should have defeated Landry in that game.

[racepug]

But I'd take Landry over Shula. Landry beat Shula in the Super Bowl. Landry was way ahead in terms of computers as brought up before, he also was an innovator on both offense and defense. Shula lost big games with the Colts to the Jets and Browns. Landry's only championship losses were to Lombardi and Noll. Weeb and Collier were excellent coaches, but not the same level. Plus, the Landry losses to the Packers were really close - down to the end. Same with the Steelers games. Shula made only one SB with perhaps the best QB of all-time. He also lost the 64 Championship with perhaps the other best QB of all-time. I love Roger Staubach, but he's not quite up there at that level. Also, people forget Landry drafted Michael Irvin even. Do the Cowboys win 3 SBs without him? And I also think Arnsbarger had a bit more to do with Shula's success than Landry's assistants, great as they were as well.

These are all valid points. I get that Shula endured several big upsets in the postseason, but I don't really knock Shula for losing to Landry in the Super Bowl. Dallas had a huge edge in experience over the Dolphins. I think that would have been expecting quite a bit to think that Shula should have defeated Landry in that game.

I do. For a guy with the reputation that Don Shula has he was severely out-coached in that game. Even his H.o.F. OG Larry Little (in Tom Danyluk's "The Super '70s") said that he thought that Shula should've run 'Mercury' Morris to the outside more in that S.B. instead of sticking with the inside running game that he said the Cowboys basically just ganged up on (and effectively neutralized). That seems like a pretty basic thing that Coach Shula could've done in an effort to throw the Cowboys off a bit and yet he failed to do so. (although I will grant you that in the same interview Larry Little said that the Dolphins "were, in many ways, 'just happy to be there' before adding "but I don't think the Cowboys were that much better than us. Not 24 - 3.)

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

But I'd take Landry over Shula. Landry beat Shula in the Super Bowl. Landry was way ahead in terms of computers as brought up before, he also was an innovator on both offense and defense. Shula lost big games with the Colts to the Jets and Browns. Landry's only championship losses were to Lombardi and Noll. Weeb and Collier were excellent coaches, but not the same level. Plus, the Landry losses to the Packers were really close - down to the end. Same with the Steelers games. Shula made only one SB with perhaps the best QB of all-time. He also lost the 64 Championship with perhaps the other best QB of all-time. I love Roger Staubach, but he's not quite up there at that level. Also, people forget Landry drafted Michael Irvin even. Do the Cowboys win 3 SBs without him? And I also think Arnsbarger had a bit more to do with Shula's success than Landry's assistants, great as they were as well.

These are all valid points. I get that Shula endured several big upsets in the postseason, but I don't really knock Shula for losing to Landry in the Super Bowl. Dallas had a huge edge in experience over the Dolphins. I think that would have been expecting quite a bit to think that Shula should have defeated Landry in that game.

I do. For a guy with the reputation that Don Shula has he was severely out-coached in that game. Even his H.o.F. OG Larry Little (in Tom Danyluk's "The Super '70s") said that he thought that Shula should've run 'Mercury' Morris to the outside more in that S.B. instead of sticking with the inside running game that he said the Cowboys basically just ganged up on (and effectively neutralized). That seems like a pretty basic thing that Coach Shula could've done in an effort to throw the Cowboys off a bit and yet he failed to do so. (although I will grant you that in the same interview Larry Little said that the Dolphins "were, in many ways, 'just happy to be there' before adding "but I don't think the Cowboys were that much better than us. Not 24 - 3.)

Shula was (IMO) clearly outcoached in all three of those games. However, in a general historical perspective, I don't really weigh those as much when considering him in an all-time vs. everybody perspective. Blanton Collier hired Shula at Kentucky - so Collier was an early mentor to Shula and it makes sense that Collier would outcoach him in the 64 game. Super Bowl 3 - I don't know why this isn't discussed more, but nobody had more motivation to pull off a huge upset than Weeb Ewbank to defeat the young coach who replaced him just a few years after he won back-to-back championships. Weeb Ewbank was an incredible big-game coach and he had extra reasons to pull off that SB 3 win (although he apparently downplayed that notion). With SB 6, yes -- the Cowboys were an experienced SB team, knew the drill of being there (likely an even bigger advantage in the first years of the SB), and felt the previous year was unresolved. That game might have been Landry's best preparation for a championship game. There aren't very many coaches that I'd measure Shula against bringing up those three games, but in the specific case against Landry, I weigh all three in comparing championship losses.

But again, they're so close - if Landry is 7 on my all-time list, Shula is 8. It's that close, IMO.

[74_75_78_79_]

Congraduations, Andy!

This ought to move you past this debate IMO.

Next mountain to try to summit?

Joe Gibbs!