Thoughts on 2023 Finalists not named Peggy Parratt

[TanksAndSpartans]

• Houston Antwine, Coy Bacon, Alyn Beals, Les Bingaman, Ray Childress, George Christensen, John David Crow, Earl Faison, Buckets Goldenberg, Leon Gray, Nick Lowery, Peggy Parratt, Michael Dean Perry, Marvin Powell, Buster Ramsey, Buck Shaw, Steve Tasker, Jeff Van Note, Herschel Walker and Russ Washington

We already had a pretty good discussion on Parratt so I wanted to see what folks thought of some of the others while there is still time to change our minds before the vote.

For me, there are 5 I think I will definitely vote for:

Houston Antwine
George Christensen
Michael Dean Perry
Buster Ramsey
Steve Tasker

My second group of 5:

Ray Childress
Earl Faison
Nick Lowery
Leon Gray
Russ Washington

Who did I miss? I was a Herschel Walker fan as a kid, Generals were local and got to go to a few games, even back then NFL regular season was tough to get tickets. I considered voting for him too.

Interested to hear any thoughts. There have been players I didn't vote for in the past, but when they got in I thought "actually that was a good choice". Buddy Young comes to mind.

[Brian wolf]

Buck Shaw should have gotten voted in before other coaches. Dominated every team in the AAFC except the Browns, who beat his team in the league's last championship game.

Created the Million Dollar Backfield and signed Billy Wilson as well but the 49ers couldnt get by powerful Lions and Rams' teams.
Had many HOFers on that team but was fired after the 1954 season. Went to an Eagles team that was so bad, Vince Lombardi didnt even wanna coach for them and brought in Norm Van Brocklin to lead his team. Beat Lombardi and the Packers for the 1960 NFL Championship. The only coach to beat Lombardi in the postseason. Had a 92-56-5 coaching record with a .630 winning pct.

John David Crow's ability to do everything almost got him traded to Cleveland for Jim Brown! At least thats the speculation that I read about because Paul Brown was getting tired of JB's moodiness and his wanting to rest more rather than blocking or going more all-out as a receiver. Crow caught the ball better than he ran but didnt have the best line in Chicago, St Louis or SF. Scored 74 career TDs but injuries in 1961 and especially 1963, hurt his chances to make the HOF ...

[JameisBrownston]

Walker is my top vote, one of my top 5 RBs not in the HOF (I include USFL on a ~75% value basis). For the record, I do think the HOF selectively considers things like USFL when it feels like it, because Jim Kelly was not a first-ballot player without it, but it is strictly on a "when we feel like it" basis, and it didn't with Walker likely because he became better known for The Trade.

Crow is probably the most productive RB of his era outside the HOVG as well, so he'll get my vote. I've pushed for Bacon for a while, although I've since uncovered DEs I prefer like Al Baker, but he'll still be on my 10.

We also discussed Beals pretty thoroughly, but he may still get a vote from me. Likely not, though. There are at least 20 receivers who should get in first.

All I know about Christensen is what Tanks has said, but there seems to be no solid reason not to put him in. A lot of players on this ballot are similarly difficult to evaluate. I will probably ask John for advice on some of the defensive linemen and such

Lowery and Tasker are definitely the two most worthy special teamers, so that'll really come down to opinions on positional value. Many think Lowery was better than Stenerud, which appears supported, and Tasker was on multiple HOF ballots, so I'd give both a good chance. I'll probably vote for Tasker and Lowery is bubble.

[Brian wolf]

Walker could plod but once he went through a hole or got running momentum, he was gone ... Whether running, catching or returning, people forget his 80+ yardage plays. A long career that could have even been better had he went right into the NFL but you cant blame Walker for taking General's president Donald Trump's money.

Christensen will get voted in this fall. Like Latone, TanksAndSpartans vote for him will make the difference. Some esteemed writers from these ranks endorsed him for the HOF on TalkOfFameTwo ...

[Bryan]

Walker is my top vote, one of my top 5 RBs not in the HOF (I include USFL on a ~75% value basis). For the record, I do think the HOF selectively considers things like USFL when it feels like it, because Jim Kelly was not a first-ballot player without it, but it is strictly on a "when we feel like it" basis, and it didn't with Walker likely because he became better known for The Trade.

I'm not seeing anything on Herschel Walker's resume that makes him even remotely a HOF RB. Yes, he had perhaps unfair expectations coming out of college, but his first year in the USFL was a major disappointment. People thought Walker would be the second coming of Jim Brown playing against 1st year USFL defenses...but he was not a dominant player. Can you imagine Jim Brown playing in the AFL in 1960 and averaging 4.4 yards per carry? Walker's 2nd season wasn't any better; teammate Maurice Carthon put up almost the exact same rushing statline. Walker's final season when the USFL was on its deathbed was great, but by that point the excitement over Herschel Walker had disappeared. I don't view Walker's time in the USFL as being an argument for his enshrinement in Canton.

Looking at Walker's NFL accomplishments, 2 1000-yard rushing seasons in 12 years during the 16-game era is....nice. Contemporary Earnest Byner had more career rushing yards than Walker, and Byner actually made his teams better. You see a pattern in Walker's career...when he was the featured player in the offense, that team couldn't really score points. Alvin Kamara had a game with 25 touches and 6 TDs...Herschel Walker had a season with 414 touches and 7 TDs. Maybe Walker was just entirely unlucky during his long pro career, but every RB who replaced Walker was better (Smith, Allen, Watters) and the offense always improved once Walker left. One thing I find maddening is when people bring up Walker's "all purpose yardage". Walker didn't return kicks in college or the USFL. He returned kicks in the NFL because coaches didn't know what to do with Walker; you couldn't build an offense around him, he wasn't a dynamic RB, but you felt the need to utilize Walker's size/speed. Even with that, Walker wasn't anything special as a kick returner, either. There are a litany of other RBs who aren't in the HOF and who were better than Walker.

[JameisBrownston]

There's only two points you make here I'll argue with you on. First, Walker had over 400 carries that first USFL year, and his overall numbers were exceptional enough for me. If you think 4.4 yards per carry is terrible on that amount of work, I'm afraid you're expecting too much out of someone who's not Jim Brown. James Wilder and Larry Johnson would like to have a word with you. And then he went and did 5.5 the 3rd year anyways, because why not.

Second, if you look at scrimmage yards instead of rushing yards for his NFL career, he fares way better on the stat card, even into his post-trade years. Dude caught the lights out of the ball. That's not to mention the kick returns, which I agree is largely irrelevant. His TD per touch rate was adequate other than that one year.

I didn't say he was the best back not in the HOF (Verne Lewellen), nor did I say I'd even put him in my HOF (he's a maybe, and a hard no if no USFL allowed). First 5 out in a position group isn't that tall an order, the way I look at it. He'll be one of the top tier of RBs in the HOVG.

A contemporary I'd rate him very similarly to, who skated into the HOVG just as effortlessly, is Roger Craig. Same kind of receiving backs with extremely close career stats, and that's without counting USFL at all. Craig is also in my top 5 non-HOF RBs.

Now that you mention Earnest Byner, he's someone I'd also support for HOVG. Surprised to see him not nominated this year, also his first eligible. Maybe everyone used their modern era RB spot on Walker this year.

[Bryan]

Walker had over 400 carries that first USFL year, and his overall numbers were exceptional enough for me. If you think 4.4 yards per carry is terrible on that amount of work, I'm afraid you're expecting too much out of someone who's not Jim Brown. James Wilder and Larry Johnson would like to have a word with you.

At the time, everyone thought Walker would dominate the USFL immediately. He didn't. He couldn't make the Generals a competitive team. I give credit to Walker for his durability, which was probably his most valuable trait, but I don't view 4.4 YPC as exceptional in a rookie league when guys like Ken Lacy and Richard Crump are averaging 5+. Not to point out the obvious, but Wilder and Johnson had 400+ carries in a 16 game schedule (not 18) and in the NFL.

I didn't say he was the best back not in the HOF (Verne Lewellen), nor did I say I'd even put him in my HOF (he's a maybe, and a hard no if no USFL allowed). First 5 out in a position group isn't that tall an order, the way I look at it. He'll be one of the top tier of RBs in the HOVG.

Nothing stands out to me about Walker, that was my point. So I'm not sure what criteria one would use to rate Walker highly. His "peak" was 1986-1988, and it wasn't that remarkable. He didn't achieve anything in the postseason. He didn't make his teams better. He didn't have a brilliant career derailed by injury. He was a compiler IMO whose stats are less impressive than Matt Forte's. There was a thread a few weeks ago where some random straw poll had Ricky Watters being the best of the 90's-00's RBs who aren't in the Hall of Fame, but I would really take anyone in that group over Walker, including Watters. Who is in your "first 5 out" RBs if the list includes Herschel Walker?

[Brian wolf]

Sorry guys but I dont see over 5000 yards and two TDs on kick returns for Walker as being irrelevant. He had at least three seasons averaging nearly, 28 yards per return. Not bad and helpful for any team. Bryan raises good points, yet if Walker never enters the USFL, a different career. A compiler yes, but seven seasons with 8 or more TDs isnt bad either ...

[JameisBrownston]

There was a thread a few weeks ago where some random straw poll had Ricky Watters being the best of the 90's-00's RBs who aren't in the Hall of Fame, but I would really take anyone in that group over Walker, including Watters. Who is in your "first 5 out" RBs if the list includes Herschel Walker?

I would rate Watters, Walker, and Craig all in one tier together, along with Priest Holmes and finally Tiki Barber, who might be my top choice of the 5 due to having a stronger peak than Watters (and into his 30s as well, rare at RB) and more consistent than Walker and Craig, although he had some weird TD-starved years. Lewellen, of course, is the other one sitting at #1, so that makes 6. If I were to drop one from the 5, it's probably Craig.

Weird ik that it's 5 guys from more or less one era plus Lewellen, but I can't think of any snubs from before. Spec Sanders? Eh. The bar for pre-1980 RB is lower to a bizarre extent, meaning everyone who should be in really got in, and a couple who shouldn't (glares at Hornung). I think multiple 2k scrimmage seasons should get you in the HOF, and that the receiving outputs of the 90s-early 00s backs are not being sufficiently weighed. Jerome Bettis, for example, got in a little too easily despite a lower peak than most of these guys.

Recall that I count USFL at approximately 75% credit, so I judge Walker as though he has over 17000 scrimmage yards and 120 TDs, both of which are easily the highest of this group and unquestionable HOF levels. All I'm arguing is them not caring about that shouldn't influence us.

[Bryan]

I would rate Watters, Walker, and Craig all in one tier together, along with Priest Holmes and finally Tiki Barber, who might be my top choice of the 5 due to having a stronger peak than Watters (and into his 30s as well, rare at RB) and more consistent than Walker and Craig, although he had some weird TD-starved years. Lewellen, of course, is the other one sitting at #1, so that makes 6. If I were to drop one from the 5, it's probably Craig.

So if I am understanding this correctly, your top 5 RBs not in the HOF is Lewellen, Watters, Walker, Holmes & Tiki Barber. How does Walker compare favorably to other RBs who compiled much better numbers, such as Matt Forte, Steven Jackson & Ottis Anderson? Walker has very little accolades and virtually no black ink to speak of, so if you aren't looking at context, how does Walker compare favorably with Shaun Alexander & Corey Dillon?

I think multiple 2k scrimmage seasons should get you in the HOF,

Seems to be kind of a random criteria, and even then you don't have William Andrews or Ray Rice in your "top 5 RBs not in the HOF".

Recall that I count USFL at approximately 75% credit, so I judge Walker as though he has over 17000 scrimmage yards and 120 TDs, both of which are easily the highest of this group and unquestionable HOF levels. All I'm arguing is them not caring about that shouldn't influence us.

How did you come up with the 75% number? You first said "-75%", which made some sense to me to divide Walker's USFL output by 3/4 based on the NFL numbers put up by the USFL RBs. None of the USFL RBs put up anything remotely close to their USFL numbers in the NFL, including Walker. John Corker had 28 sacks for the Panthers in 1983...do you think that translates to 21 sacks had he played in the NFL in 1983? Corker played 4 seasons in the NFL and had 1 career sack. Chuck Clanton had 16 interceptions for the Stallions in 1985, so 12 NFL interceptions. Clanton played 1 season in the NFL and had 0 INTs.