Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Fran didn't get in until his third year of eligibility, 1986, as Fouts got in on First Ballot in '93.

I'm not going to make a case that Dan shouldn't have been First Ballot as he was, but you'd think if one waits three years with the other not waiting, you'd think it'd be the other way around. Tarkenton should have been First Ballot either way. And he did lead his team to three Super Bowls whereas Fouts never made it to even one. And I just feel that Fran was the all-around stronger QB! If I have to build a team around a QB, and both are the top-two choices, I'd take #10 over #14 any day! I do know that Tark was bitter about it at the time. And I believe I've read that it was politics; some of the voters having something against him.

I know, a HOFer is a HOFer, but many of us - like myself - can't help but to go by the maxim that "not all HOFer are created equal". There are some who you feel should be 1st Ballot and others that you wouldn't be upset if it could wait. Ray Lewis and Urlacher get in at the same time and many took issue with that, feeling that the latter of the two should have maybe waited a couple more years which I agree with as well (was just too much of an obvious gap there).

Thoughts?

A lot of what year of eligibility a guy gets inducted has to do with the competition as his own position during those years he's a finalist. The recent logjam at OL caused the delay in getting Mawae/Hutchinson/Faneca in. I don't have the list of finalists in front of me but other QBs being finalists in the mid 80s may have siphoned some votes away from Fran. I know Namath went in in 1985. I remember being a bit shocked at the time that Jim Kelly got voted first ballot. He certainly didn't seem like a first ballot guy to me. But there were no other QBs making the group of finalists around that time.

ChrisBabcock wrote:A lot of what year of eligibility a guy gets inducted has to do with the competition as his own position during those years he's a finalist. The recent logjam at OL caused the delay in getting Mawae/Hutchinson/Faneca in. I don't have the list of finalists in front of me but other QBs being finalists in the mid 80s may have siphoned some votes away from Fran. I know Namath went in in 1985. I remember being a bit shocked at the time that Jim Kelly got voted first ballot. He certainly didn't seem like a first ballot guy to me. But there were no other QBs making the group of finalists around that time.

Makes sense. Especially considering the lower number of yearly inductees at the time. In '84, Fran's first year, there were no QBs picked of the four who got in. Namath, in his second year of eligibility, didn't get in either. It was Mike McCormack, Charley Taylor, senior Arnie Weinmeister, and 1st Ballot Willie Brown that were picked.

And then the following year, 1985, Staubach gets in first try and Namath as well. OJ, Rozelle, and senior Gatski rounded out the rest. I guess the question would be should Namath have had to wait just one more year so Fran could get in already? Or should Fran have gotten in instead of Rozelle, thus allowing both QBs in together?

Just the same, he got in third try. And '86 quite a solid class with Hornung, Ken Houston, Lanier, and Doak Walker!

Still...he was 1st Ballot caliber. And not barely that either.

74_75_78_79_ wrote: I guess the question would be should Namath have had to wait just one more year so Fran could get in already? Or should Fran have gotten in instead of Rozelle, thus allowing both QBs in together?

Tarkenton not being elected 1st ballot is one of the most illogical things in the history of the HOF. Even after he had been retired and became eligible, he was still the leader in all the major passer categories and QB running categories.

The story is that when Namath became eligible, the AFL/AFC selectors wanted him enshrined, but the NFL/NFC selectors voted against Namath. While you can make a case that Namath was mediocre for a large part of his career, I guess the debate between the two factions got really personal. So every year Namath's name would come up, and every year the NFL/NFC voting block would deny Namath's enshrinement. So then when Tarkenton became eligible, the AFL/AFC selectors voted "no" and said they would continue to block Tarkenton's election as long as Namath was not in the HOF. That is why you get the sequence of Namath being enshrined in 1985 and then Tarkenton being enshrined the next year.

I have often opined how ridiculous it was that Sir Francis wasn’t elected in his first year of eligibility but as bad as that was, the Carl Eller, Paul Krause and especially Mick Tingelhoff delays were far more embarrassing. I honestly believe that all four of those all-time greats would have been voted in sooner if they would never have played in the SB.

JohnH19 wrote:I have often opined how ridiculous it was that Sir Francis wasn’t elected in his first year of eligibility but as bad as that was, the Carl Eller, Paul Krause and especially Mick Tingelhoff delays were far more embarrassing. I honestly believe that all four of those all-time greats would have been voted in sooner if they would never have played in the SB.

Don't forget that Alan Page was elected in his second year because he retired the same time as Joe Greene, and Mean Joe has the 4 Super Bowl rings that Page doesn't have (they both deserved to go in their first try, regardless of the other eligible candidates, IMHO).

ChrisBabcock wrote:A lot of what year of eligibility a guy gets inducted has to do with the competition as his own position during those years he's a finalist. The recent logjam at OL caused the delay in getting Mawae/Hutchinson/Faneca in. I don't have the list of finalists in front of me but other QBs being finalists in the mid 80s may have siphoned some votes away from Fran. I know Namath went in in 1985. I remember being a bit shocked at the time that Jim Kelly got voted first ballot. He certainly didn't seem like a first ballot guy to me. But there were no other QBs making the group of finalists around that time.

I also was shocked when Kelly went in his first try, and also when Troy Aikman and Warren Moon were picked together in their first try.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Fran didn't get in until his third year of eligibility, 1986, as Fouts got in on First Ballot in '93.

I'm not going to make a case that Dan shouldn't have been First Ballot as he was, but you'd think if one waits three years with the other not waiting, you'd think it'd be the other way around. Tarkenton should have been First Ballot either way. And he did lead his team to three Super Bowls whereas Fouts never made it to even one. And I just feel that Fran was the all-around stronger QB! If I have to build a team around a QB, and both are the top-two choices, I'd take #10 over #14 any day! I do know that Tark was bitter about it at the time. And I believe I've read that it was politics; some of the voters having something against him.

I know, a HOFer is a HOFer, but many of us - like myself - can't help but to go by the maxim that "not all HOFer are created equal". There are some who you feel should be 1st Ballot and others that you wouldn't be upset if it could wait. Ray Lewis and Urlacher get in at the same time and many took issue with that, feeling that the latter of the two should have maybe waited a couple more years which I agree with as well (was just too much of an obvious gap there).

Thoughts?

Here is the backstory on Tarkenton having to wait
https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... h-got.html

I personally find the ballot talk silly as how difficult each ballot will be is random determined by when players retire. Yes the greatest players ever should get in 1st ballot regardless because they'll never be 5 more deserving candidates but otherwise it's up to chance. The voters also clearly have non football related criteria(how long is x playing, how many of this position should be inducted this year, football politics reasons described in above posts etc). The 5 best players on a ballot are rarely the HOF class even if that's how it should ideally work. There are second and third ballot HOFers better than first ballot hall of famers etc seniors better than non seniors etc.

HOFers aren't equal but that should not be gagued by how quickly they got elected. It should be gagued by simply comparing their numbers and real honors and trophys they actually won.

But yes Tarkenton should have been in on the first ballot. As others have said it makes no sense if they're picking the 5 best players on the ballot but they are often aren't. US media has this weird obsession with punishing brilliant athlethes who don't win championships but I don't think that was a thing in the 80s or 90s? I don't think Fouts was better than Tarkenton but I'm not outraged with Fouts over Tarkenton.

Regarding Fran Tarkenton. In the 1960s it was said, "A scrambling QB can't win a championship. It takes a pocket passer." This was the conventional wisdom.

Tarkenton was called a "7-7 quarterback." His first coach, Norm Van Brocklin said (after leaving Minnesota): "He'll win games he shouldn't. He'll lose games he should have won. But he'll never win the game he has to win." This was trotted out when the Vikings went 7-7 in 1972 (they won the NFC Central at 11-3 in 1971) after Tarkenton came back by trade. I heard a radio interview with Sporting News columnist Jerry Green, who said something like, "Well Fran checked in with his usual 7-7 record."

This rap on Fran Tarkenton mostly went away when he took the Vikings to the Super Bowl in 1973, and two subsequent years. He was accepted as a winning QB. But it never went away completely. This may have been a subtext to it taking three years to make the HOF.