Stafford most underhonored player in NFL history?

[JuggernautJ]

How could Stafford be the most "underhonored" player in NFL History when every day (it seems) we are told someone obviously deserving has been excluded from the Pro Football Hall of Fame (or the PFRA Hall of Very Good)?
Surely those heinous slights far exceed any injustices done to poor old Matt?!?

Nor should we forget the otherwise noteworthy players who labored thanklessly at their craft in the NFL... great players who never received even a pro bowl nod... like Manny Fernandez or Jethro Pugh.

I know we have (at least) twice discussed the best players to never be selected to (even) a pro bowl but I can't find either thread... too bad. It might've added some perspective to this topic.

[Bryan]

In terms of him padding his stats during blowouts Stafford has 41 game winning drives 8th of all time. That is over 2 and a half seasons worth of just games where Stafford had a game winning drive. He also has 33 4th quarter comebacks tied for 6th in NFL history. That's over 2 seasons worth. It is somewhat likely he will retire as the NFL leader in this stat given his age and the fact the record is 43. So I don't understand the critique that Staffords stats are empty and compiled in garbage time. Every QB is guilty of this sort of inflation to some extent.

I never thought I'd see the day when someone used 4th quarter comebacks to argue against empty stats. The 4th quarter comeback stat is about as meaningful as the game-winning RBI stat in baseball (super trivia: who was the first player in MLB history to officially record a GW RBI?). Instead of looking at isolated instances, I'd rather look at Stafford's full body of work, which is incredibly mediocre from an efficiency standpoint.

Aside from putting up below-average seasons for half his career, I would need to see specific arguments as to which seasons Stafford was decidedly snubbed from the Pro Bowl. In 2012, Stafford led the NFL with 727 attempts and threw for nearly 5000 yards...yet produced only 20 TDs and had one of the worst efficiency ratings in the NFL. That's like having the worst pitcher in the MLB compile the most innings. 2011 was Stafford's best year in which he didn't make the Pro Bowl, yet he was still only 4th in the NFC in efficiency (a mere 25 points behind Aaron Rodgers) and you had Cam Newton's unprecedented run/pass season. 2015 was Stafford's other good non-pro bowl season, again only 6th in NFC efficiency and not really close to leading any major statistical passing category. I'm not seeing which instances Stafford deserved the pro bowl, but I guess opinions may differ.

The "irony" is that Stafford's lone pro bowl selection in 2014 is somewhat dubious. Below average efficiency rating (a Mike Boryla-like 21st in the NFL), nowhere near leading any major statistical category, and should not have made the pro bowl over Russell Wilson and Eli Manning. I have an easier time arguing that Stafford should have zero career pro bowls instead of claiming "most underhonored player in history".

There are only two things that standout to me about Stafford. One, when the Lions were good, Stafford had a game against the Cowboys where he completed a pass to the 1 yard line as the clock was about to expire. Everyone thought he would spike the ball to get off one last play, but instead Stafford had the center snap the ball and he dove over for the game-winning TD. That is the only dynamic thing I've seen Stafford do in a decade-plus of football. Two, there was a time when the Lions had the best player on offense in the NFL (Calvin Johnson), the best player on defense in the NFL (Ndaumikong Suh), and Stafford still couldn't achieve anything of substance.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

So, this ties in with something that I've wanted to discuss for a really long time in regards to Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors and how they affect players getting into the HOF, HOVG, because those honors are often brought up in those conversations.

Stafford is a great example of a guy that put up incredible numbers -- but how is he going to make the Pro Bowl when he's always competing against Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees every year? All-Pro? Forget about it when you add in Brady, Manning, and Big Ben. So yeah, Stafford's a great talent but there are only so many honors to go around and during an era with a few legendary quarterbacks putting up insane stats every year, he would have trouble making the Pro Bowl even in career years.

In other eras, you have a guy like Jerry Rice -- he's going to take a spot every year. Same with Jack Lambert. Just two guys off the top of my head. How do we realistically review players' careers based on All-Pro, Pro Bowl honors in these situations? Talking about guys who were excellent players who don't get those honors as often as they might have otherwise.

It's not Stafford's fault that he always had multiple all-timers to compete with every year (Favre had a great year with Minn, Warner with AZ, then you had Brady join the NFC, and always Rodgers and Brees).

Without Rodgers and Brees playing at the same time, I think you'd have a lot more attention on what Stafford has done.

[Bryan]

So, this ties in with something that I've wanted to discuss for a really long time in regards to Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors and how they affect players getting into the HOF, HOVG, because those honors are often brought up in those conversations.

Stafford is a great example of a guy that put up incredible numbers -- but how is he going to make the Pro Bowl when he's always competing against Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees every year? All-Pro? Forget about it when you add in Brady, Manning, and Big Ben. So yeah, Stafford's a great talent but there are only so many honors to go around and during an era with a few legendary quarterbacks putting up insane stats every year, he would have trouble making the Pro Bowl even in career years.

In other eras, you have a guy like Jerry Rice -- he's going to take a spot every year. Same with Jack Lambert. Just two guys off the top of my head. How do we realistically review players' careers based on All-Pro, Pro Bowl honors in these situations? Talking about guys who were excellent players who don't get those honors as often as they might have otherwise.

It's not Stafford's fault that he always had multiple all-timers to compete with every year (Favre had a great year with Minn, Warner with AZ, then you had Brady join the NFC, and always Rodgers and Brees).

Stafford's numbers are far from incredible. His career is nowhere near Tony Romo, much less Rodgers and Brees. This isn't Ernie Els always finishing second to Tiger Woods...this is Rocco Mediate being a 'lovable loser'. Stafford has struggled to consistently put up numbers in line with the league average...I don't really see that as indicative of Stafford "unfairly" having to compete against guys like Rodgers/Brees. So yeah, I agree in some respect that there is consistently a large cadre of QBs that are superior to Stafford on a yearly basis...not really a fault of the pro bowl system, though.

In regards to your premise, I can see it more with All-Pro teams or in the distant past when Pro Bowl rosters were more limited. Yes, if Ray Nitschke has to compete with Joe Schmidt and Dick Butkus for the singular MLB pro bowl spot, his pro bowl total will be light. If Andre Reed and Tim Brown don't have to compete with Jerry Rice and Sterling Sharpe for AFC pro bowl spots, then their pro bowl totals will be heavy. But with expanded pro bowl rosters, pretty much every decent player will have some appearances on their resume. Case in point, look at Stafford's 2014 pro bowl.

[RichardBak]

It's kinda funny in a way---a lot of players care less about making the Pro Bowl than guys on this board. From the time the game was inaugurated more than 70 years ago, players have found ways not to play in it. Guys don't need the money, or don't want to take the risk of being injured in a bull-crap game (as minimal as that risk is), or simply are sick of the grind and want to start the offseason early.

As far as Stafford goes, I've made no secret that I'm a fan. Having watched every game he played with Detroit, I came to admire his grit. But even I wouldn't put him in the "elite" category---however one chooses to define elite---until he steers a team into the SB. After all, winning championships is what it's all about. (It's the reason I always pick Babe Ruth over Ty Cobb.) But who's to say Stafford won't wind up winning a ring or two with LA over the next several years? He's got a good team around him now and hopefully will stay healthy enough to play another few seasons. I mean, if Doug Williams and Earl Morrall can win SBs, why can't Stafford?

As in most things, time will tell. I'm still optimistic.

[Bob Gill]

Stafford's numbers are far from incredible.

I have nothing against Stafford -- in fact I kind of like him. But I'd have to agree with that statement. Forget Rodgers and Brees; just look at Stafford's stats and then check out Kirk Cousins, who beats him in just about every category. And I don't hear anybody calling Cousins an unrecognized superstar.

[GameBeforeTheMoney]

Respectfully, I disagree. Stafford has thrown for 4K yards a season for over a decade, minus one season that he missed half the year and another year that he threw for over 3700 yards. The average fan probably can't name a receiver he had in Detroit other than Megatron. Talentwise, to me at least, he's clearly heads and shoulders above Cousins and the group that's kind of at the midlevel. Rivers is a good comparison, but I personally would put him ahead of Rivers. Again, that's my opinion, but I am surprised about the negativity toward Stafford. I will pay more attention to him in the next few weeks and in the playoffs and see if my image of him changes. Are there real issues with him that I should be looking for? What am I missing about him? I figured most people recognized him as at least an above-average quarterback with a great arm. I don't ever remember watching him play and thinking that he was terrible/mediocre or couldn't be part of a winning team if surrounded with a fair amount of talent.

[Zero26]

Stafford's numbers are far from incredible.

I have nothing against Stafford -- in fact I kind of like him. But I'd have to agree with that statement. Forget Rodgers and Brees; just look at Stafford's stats and then check out Kirk Cousins, who beats him in just about every category. And I don't hear anybody calling Cousins an unrecognized superstar.

Staffords the fastest QB in NFL history to reach 50k yards. He was 1 nice pass away from throwing for 5k yards twice. He averages 275 yards a game over his career(4th in NFL history) 10 more than Tom Brady,5 more than Peyton, 15 more than Rodgers. Now calling him better than those guys based on just that is very misleading but what are you guys talking about with his stats being far from incredible? People calling him "pad stafford" are calling him such because they have to concede the numbers are great they are arguing they are misleading.

Comparing Cousins to Stafford and guys like Alex Smith is not just insulting I just don't understand those comparisons. Stafford is a slightly lesser version of Aaron Rodgers IMO. Has a howitzer of a arm and can make all sorts of incredible throws. These guys are not in the same league as Stafford who IMO should be viewed above the whole 04 class and Matt Ryan.

[Zero26]

How could Stafford be the most "underhonored" player in NFL History when every day (it seems) we are told someone obviously deserving has been excluded from the Pro Football Hall of Fame (or the PFRA Hall of Very Good)?
Surely those heinous slights far exceed any injustices done to poor old Matt?!?

Nor should we forget the otherwise noteworthy players who labored thanklessly at their craft in the NFL... great players who never received even a pro bowl nod... like Manny Fernandez or Jethro Pugh.

I know we have (at least) twice discussed the best players to never be selected to (even) a pro bowl but I can't find either thread... too bad. It might've added some perspective to this topic.

Generational talents making just 1 pro bowl is highly iregular. There are other arguments like Riggins and Ken Riley for sure. In this era though it's hard to find someone whose gotten less recognition for more production.

[Brian wolf]

Great points guys ...

I just dont feel inflated numbers can ever trump leadership or winning and Stafford can only change the perception by winning it all in LA, if not keeping them a high contender for at least three or more seasons, if his body can hold up.

GameBefore makes a great point about the accolades. Hard for a good to great player to get recognition when an elite player always gets the spots but then again, the HOF should really only be about the elite players, which is why the HOVG is great recognition.

When an excellent center like Don Macek can help lead a great offensive team like the Chargers without making a pro bowl, you know the players ahead of him like a Webster, Stephenson or Langer are either that much better or sportswriters-media get lazy and pencil them in without objectively evaluating other players years. One year, DE Elvin Bethea made the pro bowl with less than two sacks ! Which shows flaws in the distribution of yearly accolades.