Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

RichardBak
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by RichardBak »

JohnH19 wrote:
RichardBak wrote:Generally, Canadians are easy-going and friendly folks, so it's easy to overlook the fact that our neighbors to the north were a bit inhospitable to black players back then.

That’s an inaccurate generalization. Cookie’s difficulties were an exception to the typical situation for black athletes in Canada. As you know, he was a confrontational man who often created problematic situations for himself throughout his life. Black players in that era generally found life up here a breeze compared to what they had to endure in many areas of the US. Many CFL players through the decades have chosen to remain here when their careers ended.
Although many black players found opportunities playing in Canada (I was surprised to learn that John Henry Johnson, for one, started his pro career there), they still encountered discriminatory practices in the sport and in society at large. A good overview is "The Migration of African Americans to the Canadian Football League during the 1950s: An Escape from Discrimination?" It's a good objective look written by Neil Longley, Tedd Crosett, and Steve Jefferson. It appeared in the International Journal of the History of Sport, Vol. 25, no. 10 (2008).

You're right, though, about the level of discrimination not being anything like it was in the U.S. south. But it wasn't always a bed of roses in Canada either. IIRC the Canadian leagues didn't field their first black until 1946 or '47.
JameisLoseston
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by JameisLoseston »

JohnH19 wrote:Damon Allen was a superb athlete and an excellent QB whose abilities were perfectly suited to the CFL. He set career records because of his almost Brady-like longevity. He is absolutely a deserving hall of famer but few, if any, consider him one of the QBs on the CFL’s Mount Rushmore.
Interesting take in the last sentence, I'd assume most everyone would put Flutie, Damon, Moon, and Calvillo. Who would you and others put over Allen? And why would he be the first one out considering his unparalleled dual-threat achievements? If I had to leave out one of these guys, personally, it'd be Moon.
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Bryan
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by Bryan »

JameisLoseston wrote:Who would you and others put over Allen? And why would he be the first one out considering his unparalleled dual-threat achievements? If I had to leave out one of these guys, personally, it'd be Moon.
Russ Jackson, Ron Lancaster...
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RyanChristiansen
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by RyanChristiansen »

Bryan wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:This is a really interesting topic with broad implications. Marcus has openly stated that he wants his brother in Canton, and given the stats, it's hard to argue with his point
If Damon Allen gets enshrined in Canton, then there really isn't much point to having the Hall of Fame remain open. Just shut it down.
Well then they need to change the name. It's not really the Pro Football Hall of Fame now, is it? It should be the NFL Hall of Fame because that's what it is.
"Five seconds to go... A field goal could win it. Up in the air! Going deep! Tipped! Caught! Touchdown! The Vikings! They win it! Time has run out!" - Vikings 28, Browns 23, December 14, 1980, Metropolitan Stadium
Brian wolf
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by Brian wolf »

So Marcus Allen couldnt get him tryouts in the NFL, or did he just prefer Canada ?
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Bryan
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by Bryan »

RyanChristiansen wrote:Well then they need to change the name. It's not really the Pro Football Hall of Fame now, is it? It should be the NFL Hall of Fame because that's what it is.
If you call it the NFL Hall of Fame, then RememberTheAFL will reappear on this forum and annoy everyone. Can't wait to hear arguments for Stan Gelbaugh and Billy Stone making it to Canton. I guess the National Baseball Hall of Fame needs to change their name, too, because its too confusing to distinguish between Babe Ruth hitting 714 home runs and myself batting .406 in my rec league.
JameisLoseston
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by JameisLoseston »

Bryan wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:Who would you and others put over Allen? And why would he be the first one out considering his unparalleled dual-threat achievements? If I had to leave out one of these guys, personally, it'd be Moon.
Russ Jackson, Ron Lancaster...
Russ Jackson immediately reminds me of Otto Graham; similar high efficiency and also a run threat. I would have to see league passing leaderboards for those seasons to see whether the comparison holds up. Something seems to have happened in 1967 that made passing much easier for him; his stats suddenly went from very good to outstanding. Why did he retire 3 years later?

Ron Lancaster does not impress me nearly as much; reminds me more of something between Terry Bradshaw and Brett Favre, an erratic stat compiler. How in the name of frick do you throw 396 interceptions?! He didn't make up for it with any exceptional peak years, either; I'd be surprised if he ever won an MVP. Certainly ain't touching Allen's position.
Last edited by JameisLoseston on Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JohnH19
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by JohnH19 »

JameisLoseston wrote:
JohnH19 wrote:Damon Allen was a superb athlete and an excellent QB whose abilities were perfectly suited to the CFL. He set career records because of his almost Brady-like longevity. He is absolutely a deserving hall of famer but few, if any, consider him one of the QBs on the CFL’s Mount Rushmore.
Interesting take in the last sentence, I'd assume most everyone would put Flutie, Damon, Moon, and Calvillo. Who would you and others put over Allen? And why would he be the first one out considering his unparalleled dual-threat achievements? If I had to leave out one of these guys, personally, it'd be Moon.

Russ Jackson, Ron Lancaster, Doug Flutie and probably Anthony Calvillo. Honorable mention to Sam Etcheverry, Dieter Brock, Warren Moon, Damon Allen and Matt Dunigan. I may be forgetting one or two greats. Bo Levi Mitchell has had the best career of the currently active QBs but has had injuries the last couple of seasons resulting in diminished effectiveness.
JohnH19
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by JohnH19 »

RichardBak wrote: You're right, though, about the level of discrimination not being anything like it was in the U.S. south. But it wasn't always a bed of roses in Canada either. IIRC the Canadian leagues didn't field their first black until 1946 or '47.
Don’t forget that the CFL’s Canadian player quota didn’t allow for many American players on rosters decades ago and Canada’s black population was very small.
JameisLoseston
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Re: Damon Allen vs. Marcus Allen

Post by JameisLoseston »

JohnH19 wrote:Russ Jackson, Ron Lancaster, Doug Flutie and probably Anthony Calvillo. Honorable mention to Sam Etcheverry, Dieter Brock, Warren Moon, Damon Allen and Matt Dunigan. I may be forgetting one or two greats. Bo Levi Mitchell has had the best career of the currently active QBs but has had injuries the last couple of seasons resulting in diminished effectiveness.
I checked all of these guys. I might legitimately rank Lancaster last on this list. In any case, Moon, Allen, and Etcheverry are miles his superior. 396 interceptions, holy fudge. I think the early era spot is between Etcheverry and Jackson; I would love to see more data with which to judge who is more deserving, but both impress me enough at a first glance.
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