An alternate All-20s Team

[TanksAndSpartans]

What are your thoughts on Ken picking Joe Guyon for his 2nd team? Seems like its almost a semantical argument...like how Mike Alstott would rack up pro bowl berths at the FB position. Was Guyon really one of the top 8 backs of the 1920s?

Guyon = 14 TDs scored, 3 TD passes, 13 XPs.

Nevers (3 seasons) = 24 TDs scored, 14 TD passes, 5 FGs, 28 XPs.

It's really challenging when you get into the details. Ken actually eliminated Nevers based on not meeting his 4 year minimum requirement otherwise I think he would have had him at fullback.

Like you noticed, Guyon seems to be a notch below the others, but Ken actually had him at wingback. So if I didn't allow myself to cheat by shifting players into positions they didn't play, mine would be similar to Ken's:

TB: Friedman, Driscoll
FB: Elliot, McBride
WB: Latone, Guyon
BB: Lumpkin, ??

I actually think an argument can be made to just choose the best backs and ignore positions. But, I get the other side - it comes up a lot. Above I list 7 backs and none are Lewellen, yet I think Lewellen is a HOF snub. It would be more comfortable to just list 8 backs. I'd have Lewellen over Guyon and I'd throw in Lambeau (I think my 8 would all have at least 4 seasons if I did that.)
If you have to pick modern 4-3 DEs, are you allowed to choose both from the strong side if you think those are the two best or do you have to choose a player who lines up on the weak side? I don't know if there's a right answer.

[Ken Crippen]

That is what is fun about these debates. Everyone has their opinion and we can debate the merits of all of the arguments.

Eliminating Nevers was tough because of the length of career, but those were the rules I set and I had to stick to them. I know that Guyon is a controversial pick, but I did not have him as first team.

[Bob Gill]

BB: Lumpkin, ??

I agree that Guyon is a weak choice; I think he's one of the worst Hall of Fame choices from the early days. But Lumpkin couldn't be on an all-1920s team at all. His only season in the '20s was 1929, and he was playing for a non-NFL team that year (though they joined the NFL in 1930).

[TanksAndSpartans]

Good catch Bob. Yeah, I wasn't thinking. I'd have to change my blocking backs to ?? and ?? .

I think it would take some research to figure out whether enough teams in the '20s even relied on the blocking back to be a lead blocker like the Spartans would in the '30s. I know we talked about it before, but for teams where the blocking back was also the best passer, I think they lined up in the short punt formation in passing situations so the "QB/BB" could get a direct snap rather than the tailback.

[JeffreyMiller]

It does my heart well to see Swede Youngstrom getting some love from T&S and Mr. Mr. Crippen.

Also, it is correct that Ernie Nevers was essentially a tailback who has gone down in history as a fullback. I believe this was mainly because Pop Warner listed Nevers in that position to differentiate him from Thorpe when asked to name the greatest player he ever coached. He would name Thorpe as the greatest HB, and Nevers as the greatest FB. He wasn't questioned because he used the nomenclature he created for the double wing.

[Bob Gill]

I think it would take some research to figure out whether enough teams in the '20s even relied on the blocking back to be a lead blocker like the Spartans would in the '30s. I know we talked about it before, but for teams where the blocking back was also the best passer, I think they lined up in the short punt formation in passing situations so the "QB/BB" could get a direct snap rather than the tailback.

Yes, I think that might have been what the Packers did with Red Dunn -- or something similar, anyway. I get the impression that he was more of a blocking back when he wasn't passing.

And then there's Jimmy Conzelman with Providence in 1927 and '28: He caught quite a few passes, but may have been a blocking back when he wasn't receiving.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I thought of Dunn too and had a few other thoughts:

-The newspapers never really adopted the single-wing position terminology. You would always see the backs listed as LHB, RHB, QB, and FB. I vaguely recall I may have seen TB, BB, WB, FB someplace, but it wasn't the norm. I've always had the theory that some of the reporters didn't even get how the single-wing was different. They would see the tailback take the snap and list him as the QB. Not saying it happened all the time, but I'm pretty sure it happenned.

-The single-wing fullback was different than the T fullback. Nagurski playing in the T would have had the type of assignment that we imagine for a fullback. During the same time period, Ken Strong was a fullback. In stuff I've read about the Spartans, it has been mentioned Presnell being next to Clark which would make Presnell a fullback. If Baugh took the snap, I'd call him the tailback making Battles the fullback. Point being, the fullback might actually be the main runner taking direct snaps or handoffs from the TB, which isn't how we usually think of the fullback. To me, Battles, others were essentially halfbacks who lined up at FB based on terminology.

-Back to the '20s, Driscoll and Lewellen were both valued for kicking, something that wouldn't be thought of usually in evaluating backs, but relevant for the era.

-I think its tough to go 2-deep with backs especially if you have a minimum number of seasons/games in mind. I really 6 of Ken's 8, just don't really care for Grange or Guyon. Do we need Elliot and McBride in the HOVG? Both would occasionally come up on my radar. I recall I posted something about McBride and @Reaser mentioned we discussed him before. He was on my mind after talking about some big Giants seasons like '27 with Hap Moran's son. I asked the board about Elliot because he played for a lot of teams. I think either Bob G. or Tod M. helped - I know both have pretty good records on what teams players played for in this era as non-NFL can be difficult to find especially quickly. I think Elliot played in the Grange AFL and maybe the "Anthracite League" in addition to the NFL where he also logged a lot of games, sometimes for championship teams.

[NWebster]

It does my heart well to see Swede Youngstrom getting some love from T&S and Mr. Mr. Crippen.

Also, it is correct that Ernie Nevers was essentially a tailback who has gone down in history as a fullback. I believe this was mainly because Pop Warner listed Nevers in that position to differentiate him from Thorpe when asked to name the greatest player he ever coached. He would name Thorpe as the greatest HB, and Nevers as the greatest FB. He wasn't questioned because he used the nomenclature he created for the double wing.

Yes, yes, yes. I think Youngstrom was better than each of the 3 Guards selected, I'd remove any of the for him he serially underrated.

[JeffreyMiller]

It does my heart well to see Swede Youngstrom getting some love from T&S and Mr. Mr. Crippen.

Also, it is correct that Ernie Nevers was essentially a tailback who has gone down in history as a fullback. I believe this was mainly because Pop Warner listed Nevers in that position to differentiate him from Thorpe when asked to name the greatest player he ever coached. He would name Thorpe as the greatest HB, and Nevers as the greatest FB. He wasn't questioned because he used the nomenclature he created for the double wing.

Yes, yes, yes. I think Youngstrom was better than each of the 3 Guards selected, I'd remove any of the for him he serially underrated.

Amen my brother! Testify!