Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Unofficial but credible tackle numbers for pre-90s linebackers? I've seen some ridiculous figures cited for players like Tommy Nobis and Gradishar, and they seem mythical and impossible to me (seriously, 21 tackles per game for Nobis as a rookie?!), but they're often cited in HOF cases for these players. So I definitely want to know the truth about them. Strangely, MLBs that are in the hall already seem to have much more "normal" reported numbers... wonder if there's any connection there. Another player I wonder about is Lawrence Taylor; his recorded stats don't pop off the page so, as with Reggie White, I have a feeling his true greatness is hiding in his tackles. Like White, he was known for being as good against the run as the pass rush, and White's tackles are indeed quite something at times (1988...). So where can I find this data?

Two places - the game books, which are the official play-by-play documents, and if you know where to find it, broadcasts videos of the games or game film. There isn't much game film for a guy like Nobis, but for a guy like Lawrence Taylor or Reggie White, they are available, pretty much every game of their careers have been recorded by somebody on VHS and exist, and you don't want to rely on highlights like NFL Films because you can't watch every play of the game which is what you want. By 1981, the game book evolved to the point where tackles and defensive data (forced fumbles, sacks) was pretty much a standard part of the document.

That's great to know. Yes, I am willing to do the research myself, so that's not a problem. Is this the same thing John Turney used to compile all the historical sack numbers? And PFRA has all the pertinent gamebooks if I pay registration, right? However, I suspect some deceptive inflation in some of the numbers; for instance, I've heard rumors that the Falcons intentionally inflated Jessie Tuggle's tackle numbers for several years to get him into Pro Bowls. And 294 tackles for Nobis is far less believable than anything Tuggle is credited with. Would that be reflected in gamebooks too if it happened, or should they be authentic stats?

JameisLoseston wrote:That's great to know. Yes, I am willing to do the research myself, so that's not a problem. Is this the same thing John Turney used to compile all the historical sack numbers? And PFRA has all the pertinent gamebooks if I pay registration, right? However, I suspect some deceptive inflation in some of the numbers; for instance, I've heard rumors that the Falcons intentionally inflated Jessie Tuggle's tackle numbers for several years to get him into Pro Bowls. And 294 tackles for Nobis is far less believable than anything Tuggle is credited with. Would that be reflected in gamebooks too if it happened, or should they be authentic stats?

I can't speak for how John compiled the sack numbers, but I'm sure he used whatever game books he could get his hands on; they are official documents that are used to compile the statistics. I have been working for over 15 years to try to find the distances of every missed field goal in pro football history, and without the game books, this would have been impossible to get accurate numbers as newspaper accounts are not always correct as the sportswriters are making a judgment call on the distance and the game book is the official distance. As a historian, I can tell you to always use primary sources, game books or video if you can find it. Newspaper accounts of the games are a good source, but they can be suspect; who was the player who allegedly made 11 sacks in a game?

I would recommend you join PFRA, as this is the most comprehensive resource of game books available anywhere. All of the game books on the site have been reviewed to ensure the play-by-play is complete, and if it is not, I have flagged it in the game book name, such as 19751201BAL@OAK_NO 1Q.

We have all the game books for Reggie White's NFL career, and have all the game books for Lawrence Taylor's career. I have been working with a number of NFL teams to get game books and from 1960-2018 of the approximate 12,719 regular and post-season NFL and AFL games, we are currently seeking game books for less than 500 games, and are seeking upgrades (game books where the play-by-play is not 100 percent complete or readable and I am seeking better quality game books from one or both of the teams involved in the game) for less than 250 games. We have all of the game books for some of the AFL seasons, and all of the game books for the 1981-2018 seasons on the site. If there are any other particular game books you are looking for that you don't see on the site, feel free to PM me.

JameisLoseston wrote:Another player I wonder about is Lawrence Taylor; his recorded stats don't pop off the page so, as with Reggie White, I have a feeling his true greatness is hiding in his tackles

I would guess probably not on this one. I think it was in the impact plays. Also because teams had to gameplan blocking for him (on passing plays). I don't pay that much attention to stats - I actually value them more in the era before there was so much attention on the game.

Yep, definitely be joining soon, when I have enough spare time to get serious about it (college student). Rupert, the guy you're talking about is Norm Willey, right? He claims he had 17 sacks in a game due to an incentive bonus he got, but the incentive was actually for QB hits, not necessarily sacks. I recall one eyewitness report say he had about 8 sacks, which I don't think diminishes the accomplishment at all, personally; 8 sacks and 17 QB hits in a game is still outrageously effective.

The resources available on this site and the work being done to compile them is outstanding, it is without a doubt worth the price of becoming a member. I joined this year and have loved looking through the content on here.

JameisLoseston wrote:Yep, definitely be joining soon, when I have enough spare time to get serious about it (college student). Rupert, the guy you're talking about is Norm Willey, right? He claims he had 17 sacks in a game due to an incentive bonus he got, but the incentive was actually for QB hits, not necessarily sacks. I recall one eyewitness report say he had about 8 sacks, which I don't think diminishes the accomplishment at all, personally; 8 sacks and 17 QB hits in a game is still outrageously effective.

And I would think sacks would be easy to find in play-by-play of old games. I am looking at a 1956 Giants Eagles game book: BURK SMOTHERED BY ROBUSTELLI MINUS 8 TO 36. How could that not be a sack? Other plays such as vAN BROCKLIN TACKLED FOR 8-YARD LOSS (LIPSCOMB) would also clearly be sacks. Pro Football Reference.com and football encyclopedias have seasonal team sack totals going back into the late 1940's, I have no idea how they came up with those numbers and how accurate they are, but those numbers came from someplace.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

JameisLoseston wrote:Yep, definitely be joining soon, when I have enough spare time to get serious about it (college student). Rupert, the guy you're talking about is Norm Willey, right? He claims he had 17 sacks in a game due to an incentive bonus he got, but the incentive was actually for QB hits, not necessarily sacks. I recall one eyewitness report say he had about 8 sacks, which I don't think diminishes the accomplishment at all, personally; 8 sacks and 17 QB hits in a game is still outrageously effective.

And I would think sacks would be easy to find in play-by-play of old games. I am looking at a 1956 Giants Eagles game book: BURK SMOTHERED BY ROBUSTELLI MINUS 8 TO 36. How could that not be a sack? Other plays such as vAN BROCKLIN TACKLED FOR 8-YARD LOSS (LIPSCOMB) would also clearly be sacks. Pro Football Reference.com and football encyclopedias have seasonal team sack totals going back into the late 1940's, I have no idea how they came up with those numbers and how accurate they are, but those numbers came from someplace.

That reminds me, does anyone happen to know career sack totals for guys like Robustelli, Marchetti, Doug Atkins, etc? Or is this another project to pursue on my own? The common all time sack leaders list augmented by John's data that I've seen floating around doesn't include anyone who played before Deacon. And considering things like 8 sack games happened back then, I highly doubt it's because those guys just didn't have enough sacks to make the list.

JameisLoseston wrote:That reminds me, does anyone happen to know career sack totals for guys like Robustelli, Marchetti, Doug Atkins, etc? Or is this another project to pursue on my own? The common all time sack leaders list augmented by John's data that I've seen floating around doesn't include anyone who played before Deacon. And considering things like 8 sack games happened back then, I highly doubt it's because those guys just didn't have enough sacks to make the list.

As far as I know, John Turney's sack database has never been made public. I've seen his list of career sack leaders, I think Sean Lahman printed a list in his "Historical Football Abstract" book if memory serves.

One problem I'm guessing is the lack of game books, that they are harder to find before 1960. The other problem is the lack of film before 1960. With no television footage available of pro football games before 1960 (the earliest complete pro football game broadcasts that survives today are the 1961 NFL Championship Game and the 1962 AFL Championship game, after that, Super Bowl III). Earlier than that, you've just got some game film and the annual NFL Title game highlight films and the quality of game film is sometimes grainy at best and impossible to read the player's numbers.