First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Bob Gill
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by Bob Gill »

NWebster wrote:I'd want to toss Del Shofner's name in amongst the list of seniors who should get in right now. And that's the way I like to think of it, which is obviously very different than the voters. I basically say, of the potential senior poll who should be in tomorrow if there were no limit. That's a list that's probably 10 or 11 long, we'll ok, now the next 5 years are taken care of. The voters seem to decide on a whim every summer, usually (Richter, Stabler) because the guy happened to die right before the nomination, which is as spurious a reason as any. Personally, Stabler was never on my "should be in tomorrow" list.
A few threads seem to be converging at the moment. In the one that has Eli Manning in the title, Reaser (or somebody) just hit on the point that being the best at your position is a good starting point (and some would simply say a requirement) for any Hall of Fame candidate. And now here we have a reference to Shofner, one of the handful of best candidates if we use that very valid yardstick. For five or six years, 1958 to '63 -- a pretty long time in football, by the way -- it seems pretty clear that he was considered the best receiver in the NFL by just about everybody, and yet he's not even in the discussion at all (except here), simply because after his run as the best he started getting hurt and kind of fell off the map.

Well, I guess I've said this before, but it just bugs me, that's all.
NWebster
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by NWebster »

Bob Gill wrote:
NWebster wrote:I'd want to toss Del Shofner's name in amongst the list of seniors who should get in right now. And that's the way I like to think of it, which is obviously very different than the voters. I basically say, of the potential senior poll who should be in tomorrow if there were no limit. That's a list that's probably 10 or 11 long, we'll ok, now the next 5 years are taken care of. The voters seem to decide on a whim every summer, usually (Richter, Stabler) because the guy happened to die right before the nomination, which is as spurious a reason as any. Personally, Stabler was never on my "should be in tomorrow" list.
A few threads seem to be converging at the moment. In the one that has Eli Manning in the title, Reaser (or somebody) just hit on the point that being the best at your position is a good starting point (and some would simply say a requirement) for any Hall of Fame candidate. And now here we have a reference to Shofner, one of the handful of best candidates if we use that very valid yardstick. For five or six years, 1958 to '63 -- a pretty long time in football, by the way -- it seems pretty clear that he was considered the best receiver in the NFL by just about everybody, and yet he's not even in the discussion at all (except here), simply because after his run as the best he started getting hurt and kind of fell off the map.

Well, I guess I've said this before, but it just bugs me, that's all.
Precisely, can anyone let me know why Tommy McDonald is in over him? I Guess Tommy had more personality, but Del did it in 5 years over a six year span, more AP All Pros than Ray Berry. In LA and NYC, didn't win but was in Ttiles and was a huge contributor to Y.A.' s big seasons.
bachslunch
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by bachslunch »

NWebster wrote: Precisely, can anyone let me know why Tommy McDonald is in over him? I Guess Tommy had more personality, but Del did it in 5 years over a six year span, more AP All Pros than Ray Berry. In LA and NYC, didn't win but was in Ttiles and was a huge contributor to Y.A.' s big seasons.
My guess is that he was very high up in lifetime counting stats at the time he retired. He finished 2nd all time in receiving TDs behind only Don Hutson, was 3rd all time in receiving yards behind Ray Berry and Billy Howton, and was 5th all time in receptions behind Berry, Lionel Taylor, Bobby Mitchell, and Howton. Plus he gets some kick return credit. And winning a title may not have hurt any.
bachslunch
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by bachslunch »

rebelx24 wrote:
paulksandiego wrote:Regarding the old-timers, I'd like throw Riley Matheson and Dick Barwegan into the hat. How they haven't been selected through the years, I don't know.
I'd also add Al Wistert, Bruno Banducci, Vern Lewellen, and Duke Slater as being pretty darn deserving. Just wonder how many of the people on the Seniors committee are really in the corner of any of these players anymore.
While I'm in agreement with all the other names mentioned above, I'm not taken with Banducci. He's got good honors numbers (5/1/none) given that he played mostly in the AAFC and pre-Pro Bowl, but he doesn't grade out very well at Ken's website -- he's at 7.5, tied for next to last with Pat Fischer and Dick Schafrath. Other guards such as Jim Ray Smith (7.9), Dick Barwegen (7.8), and Jerry Kramer (7.8) all grade out notably better. Duane Putnam also has excellent honors at 5/5/none, though I have no idea how he looks via film study. Anybody got some insights on him?
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Bryan
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by Bryan »

NWebster wrote:Precisely, can anyone let me know why Tommy McDonald is in over him? I Guess Tommy had more personality, but Del did it in 5 years over a six year span, more AP All Pros than Ray Berry. In LA and NYC, didn't win but was in Ttiles and was a huge contributor to Y.A.' s big seasons.
I always thought McDonald was a weird selection, especially when guys like Shofner and Howton got nowhere with the selection committee. I think his high career TD total (84) kind of sets him apart from a lot of other WRs (Shofner had 51). Looking at their career productions side-by-side, it seems like the main difference is that McDonald's "not-great" seasons usually saw him catch 40 passes for 700 yards and 7 TDs, whereas Shofner's "not-great" seasons were more like 20 catches for 400 yards and 2 TDs. Should that warrant one player getting in to Canton over another?

Speaking of AP All Pros, its interesting to me that McDonald led the NFL in yards and TDs in 1961, yet the only 1st team All Pro recognition he got was from
The Sporting News. Shofner was a consensus first team All-Pro in 1961.

One final note about McDonald, in McDonald's second to last game (1968 playoff vs. Cowboys), he returned 2 punts for 6 yards. The last time he had returned a punt was in 1964, and the last time he was a regular punt returner was 1959. Was there any reason why the Browns chose to put a 34-year old WR out to return punts in the most important game of the year?
John Grasso
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by John Grasso »

NWebster wrote:I'd want to toss Del Shofner's name in amongst the list of seniors who should get in right now. And that's the way I like to think of it, which is obviously very different than the voters. I basically say, of the potential senior poll who should be in tomorrow if there were no limit. That's a list that's probably 10 or 11 long, we'll ok, now the next 5 years are taken care of. The voters seem to decide on a whim every summer, usually (Richter, Stabler) because the guy happened to die right before the nomination, which is as spurious a reason as any. Personally, Stabler was never on my "should be in tomorrow" list.
Shouldn't you elect someone while they can still smell the roses rather than electing them because
they died recently?
Jeremy Crowhurst
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by Jeremy Crowhurst »

Bryan wrote:
NWebster wrote:Precisely, can anyone let me know why Tommy McDonald is in over him? I Guess Tommy had more personality, but Del did it in 5 years over a six year span, more AP All Pros than Ray Berry. In LA and NYC, didn't win but was in Ttiles and was a huge contributor to Y.A.' s big seasons.
I always thought McDonald was a weird selection, especially when guys like Shofner and Howton got nowhere with the selection committee. I think his high career TD total (84) kind of sets him apart from a lot of other WRs (Shofner had 51). Looking at their career productions side-by-side, it seems like the main difference is that McDonald's "not-great" seasons usually saw him catch 40 passes for 700 yards and 7 TDs, whereas Shofner's "not-great" seasons were more like 20 catches for 400 yards and 2 TDs. Should that warrant one player getting in to Canton over another?

Speaking of AP All Pros, its interesting to me that McDonald led the NFL in yards and TDs in 1961, yet the only 1st team All Pro recognition he got was from
The Sporting News. Shofner was a consensus first team All-Pro in 1961.

One final note about McDonald, in McDonald's second to last game (1968 playoff vs. Cowboys), he returned 2 punts for 6 yards. The last time he had returned a punt was in 1964, and the last time he was a regular punt returner was 1959. Was there any reason why the Browns chose to put a 34-year old WR out to return punts in the most important game of the year?
What's interesting about 1961 isn't Shofner but not McDonald, it's Red Phillips but not McDonald. Phillips was 78-1092-5 to McDonald's 64-1144-13. I guess most of the All Pro voters valued catches over everything else.

As for McDonald getting into Canton, I think that for a while there, the rule was "If you break any of Don Hutson's records, then you get in, unless you helped form the Players Association and then went to jail for fraud."
JohnTurney
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by JohnTurney »

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote: What's interesting about 1961 isn't Shofner but not McDonald, it's Red Phillips but not McDonald. Phillips was 78-1092-5 to McDonald's 64-1144-13. I guess most of the All Pro voters valued catches over everything else.
d. "
In 1961 the Ap didn't publish a 2nd team, and if they had, McDonald would have been the 2nd team "flanker back" even though he was not a "back" like Lenny Moore who sometimes did run the ball, McDonald was the "flanker" the end outside the TE, off the ball. So, it may not have been that they though Phillips was better, but that they thought Moore was better and given the structure of the ballot, they had to put him at flanker back, that's my thoughts

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I've been working on the "missing 1961" AP second team for my blog---and that's what my research showed
John Maxymuk
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by John Maxymuk »

Ray Didinger was the committee member who presented McDonald for the vote. Tommy had been his favorite player growing up. Ray did such a great job that I believe McDonald had him introduce Tommy at the induction ceremony. I think the touchdown per catch ratio was a big selling point as was his being one of the last players to go without a facemask.

McDonald was a terrific receiver who was unafraid going over the middle despite his small stature and spirited exciting player. I believe he was highly thought of in his time...I remember there was a big SI piece on him in the early 60s. I agree Shofner was probably the best receiver of the time, but if you look at the receiving stats for that time, there were lots of guys averaging around 20 yards a catch who are forgotten now like Buddy Dial and Sonny Randle. Fun to watch.
John Maxymuk
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Re: First-time eligibles for HOF Class of 2017 include:

Post by John Maxymuk »

Just a followup to my earlier post about Didinger and McDonald. Didinger was the Eagles beat man on the Phila. Bulletin, then a columnist for the Phila Daily News, then worked for NFL Films and is in the writer's wing of the HoF. He is well respected and ubiquitous in Philadelphia.

Today I heard him on a local sports talk show telling about how he's written his first play and hopes to get it produced this year. The subject is his relationship with McDonald, starting with meeting him as a 10 year old fan at Eagles training camp, becoming TM's friend as an adult, and then helping to fulfill TM's dream of getting into the HoF when RD was a HoF voter.
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