Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfQakr5GBQo

It was Sapp carrying Rice' water a while back

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-t ... an-Strahan

No, Rice was not better than Strahan. Well, as a pure pass rusher, maybe, but as an all-around d-end, absolutely not.

I have long wondered about Rice's hall chances, though, and I think he may actually be borderline. One thing that really strikes you, when looking at his numbers, is how consistently productive a pass rusher he was. He had 119 sacks in the first ten seasons of his career and 122 when you count the two injury-plagued seasons at the end, and you have to wonder how many he might have ended up with if he hadn't been derailed, given the pace he'd been on. He's now 17th on the all-time sack list, and the guys ahead of him are already in the Hall, will be eventually (Greene, Taylor, Allen, Abraham, Ware, Peppers), or probably ought to be (O'Neal). The guy immediately below him on the list, Clyde Simmons, has only one less sack, but by comparison, was more of a compiler-type of player who had five more healthy years (Simmons never missed a contest in his career, in fact).

I have also heard that Rice was not the horrendous run defender that he was often made out to be, and had actually improved in this regard over time. He certainly wasn't Dwight Freeney, at least.

rebelx24 wrote:No, Rice was not better than Strahan. Well, as a pure pass rusher, maybe, but as an all-around d-end, absolutely not.

I have long wondered about Rice's hall chances, though, and I think he may actually be borderline. One thing that really strikes you, when looking at his numbers, is how consistently productive a pass rusher he was. He had 119 sacks in the first ten seasons of his career and 122 when you count the two injury-plagued seasons at the end, and you have to wonder how many he might have ended up with if he hadn't been derailed, given the pace he'd been on. He's now 17th on the all-time sack list, and the guys ahead of him are already in the Hall, will be eventually (Greene, Taylor, Allen, Abraham, Ware, Peppers), or probably ought to be (O'Neal). The guy immediately below him on the list, Clyde Simmons, has only one less sack, but by comparison, was more of a compiler-type of player who had five more healthy years (Simmons never missed a contest in his career, in fact).

I have also heard that Rice was not the horrendous run defender that he was often made out to be, and had actually improved in this regard over time. He certainly wasn't Dwight Freeney, at least.

very similar to my views

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... ahans.html

John, interesting post. I had no idea that Simmons was that good a run defender. Is he perhaps more borderline great than a lot of people think, as well?

JohnTurney wrote:

rebelx24 wrote:No, Rice was not better than Strahan. Well, as a pure pass rusher, maybe, but as an all-around d-end, absolutely not.

I have long wondered about Rice's hall chances, though, and I think he may actually be borderline. One thing that really strikes you, when looking at his numbers, is how consistently productive a pass rusher he was. He had 119 sacks in the first ten seasons of his career and 122 when you count the two injury-plagued seasons at the end, and you have to wonder how many he might have ended up with if he hadn't been derailed, given the pace he'd been on. He's now 17th on the all-time sack list, and the guys ahead of him are already in the Hall, will be eventually (Greene, Taylor, Allen, Abraham, Ware, Peppers), or probably ought to be (O'Neal). The guy immediately below him on the list, Clyde Simmons, has only one less sack, but by comparison, was more of a compiler-type of player who had five more healthy years (Simmons never missed a contest in his career, in fact).

I have also heard that Rice was not the horrendous run defender that he was often made out to be, and had actually improved in this regard over time. He certainly wasn't Dwight Freeney, at least.

very similar to my views

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... ahans.html

I think Rice is a borderline HOFer ability-wise, but he just doesn't have either a monster year, defining moment, or great career stats. I think Doleman, Simmons, and Dent had better linemates than Rice, and I would guess that if you put Simeon Rice on the 85 Bears, 88 Vikes, or 91 Eagles you wouldn't have any drop off in performance. Rant aside, Rice was a really good player who might be a bit overlooked in retrospect.

rebelx24 wrote:John, interesting post. I had no idea that Simmons was that good a run defender. Is he perhaps more borderline great than a lot of people think, as well?

Clyde Simmons, IMO, is a HOVG player.

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:

rebelx24 wrote:No, Rice was not better than Strahan. Well, as a pure pass rusher, maybe, but as an all-around d-end, absolutely not.

I have long wondered about Rice's hall chances, though, and I think he may actually be borderline. One thing that really strikes you, when looking at his numbers, is how consistently productive a pass rusher he was. He had 119 sacks in the first ten seasons of his career and 122 when you count the two injury-plagued seasons at the end, and you have to wonder how many he might have ended up with if he hadn't been derailed, given the pace he'd been on. He's now 17th on the all-time sack list, and the guys ahead of him are already in the Hall, will be eventually (Greene, Taylor, Allen, Abraham, Ware, Peppers), or probably ought to be (O'Neal). The guy immediately below him on the list, Clyde Simmons, has only one less sack, but by comparison, was more of a compiler-type of player who had five more healthy years (Simmons never missed a contest in his career, in fact).

I have also heard that Rice was not the horrendous run defender that he was often made out to be, and had actually improved in this regard over time. He certainly wasn't Dwight Freeney, at least.

very similar to my views

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... ahans.html

I think Rice is a borderline HOFer ability-wise, but he just doesn't have either a monster year, defining moment, or great career stats. I think Doleman, Simmons, and Dent had better linemates than Rice, and I would guess that if you put Simeon Rice on the 85 Bears, 88 Vikes, or 91 Eagles you wouldn't have any drop off in performance. Rant aside, Rice was a really good player who might be a bit overlooked in retrospect.

I think there would have been a drop-off in overall performance if Rice were with those teams, not in pass rush, but in playing the scheme. Bucs had a simple-3-read defense and Rice was good at getting up field, but if teams ran at him, he really didn't hold point. Rice has Booger McFarlane and Sapp on his line with Brooks and Nickerson backing him up.

The Bucs in Rice's era was okay versus run, allowed about 4 yards a carry when Rice was there, but they excelled at rushing the QB and stopping the pass.

If you look at the Simmons-White-Brown era for Eagles they got to passer, but allowed about 3.5 a rush in their prime. Vikings about 3.8 in the Doleman era and the Bears were also around 3.5

Would have Rice been awful? No. He would have had to adjust his game though and play traps and reach blocks better to maintain gap control. But in terms of being complete, perhaps none of them were, but versus run I'd go Simmons, Doleman, Dent then Rice. Pass rush. too close to call for Rice, Dent and Doleman, then followed by Simmons. All around? Lean to Simmons, then Doleman and Dent neck and neck then Rice. That's how I'd rank those four.

JohnTurney wrote:

rebelx24 wrote:John, interesting post. I had no idea that Simmons was that good a run defender. Is he perhaps more borderline great than a lot of people think, as well?

Clyde Simmons, IMO, is a HOVG player.

Yeah, that squares with the impression of him I've had for some time: Good to Very Good level overall. I do think more highly of him now, though, knowing that his run defense was quite strong, so I guess he ranks higher up in that range than I previously believed.

rebelx24 wrote:Yeah, that squares with the impression of him I've had for some time: Good to Very Good level overall. I do think more highly of him now, though, knowing that his run defense was quite strong, so I guess he ranks higher up in that range than I previously believed.

This is just trivial knowledge from Roland Lazenby's bio on Michael Jordan, but....Clyde Simmons was a really good basketball player in high school, and his school had a big rivalry with Michael Jordan's high school. Simmons's team usually beat Jordan's team because in addition to Simmons they had two other really good players. Jordan's high school team usually finished in the middle of the conference standings, so he didn't have much hype coming out of high school. Jordan attends a "5-star recruiting camp" where he plays against the top high school players in the natoin, and he completely dominates the competition. Jordan returns home and tells Simmons and his teammates, "You guys gotta go to these camps...you have no idea how good you are!"