"Three Studs on the O-Line" article

[Saban1]

Talking about the post Huff era Giants, we should mention 1970, probably the Giants best season between the Gifford, Huff teams and the Lawrence Taylor era.

1970 was a year that everything just seemed to go the Giants way. The Giants could have made the playoffs that year and possibly the Super Bowl. I will give some reasons here for the improvement.

(1) The Cleveland Browns, in need of a QB, trade Paul Warfield to Miami for a rookie QB named Mike Phipps. To try to make up for the loss of WR Warfield the Browns trade DT Jim Kanicki and RB Ron Johnson to the Giants for WR Homer Jones. Kanicki becomes a solid starter for the Giants at right DT and Ron Johnson becomes a Giants star at running back. Homer Jones does not become a starter for Cleveland at WR.

(2) Matt Hazeltine is picked up from the 49ers and becomes a starter at right linebacker. The former All-Pro linebacker was 37 but played well for the Giants in 1970.

(3) Big rookie Jim Files (6' 4" and about 240 lbs.) takes over at middle linebacker, allowing veteran Ralph Heck to move over to left linebacker. Rookie Files had size and speed and his lack of experience was probably made up for with the seasoned veterans playing on both sides of him.

(4) Jerry Shay was a veteran DT picked up from Atlanta and though not very big for a defensive tackle of that era, plays well for the Giants in 1970, according to Fran Tarkenton.

(5) Clifton McNeil is picked up in a trade with the 49ers in an effort to replace Homer Jones at WR. McNeil plays well and catches 50 passes for the Giants in 1970.

(6) Free agent Bob Tucker becomes the starting TE for New York and is one of the big surprises for the Giants. Tucker was to become a very good TE in the NFL and catches 40 passes in 1970. Tucker was also a formidable blocker.

(7) Defensive ends Fred "Hunter" Dryer and Bob Lurtsema help give the New York team a good pass rush in 1970.

(8) According to Fran Tarkenton, offensive line of Young, Case, Larson, Van Horn, and Buzin play well for the Giants. It probably doesn't hurt that Tarkenton has the ability to scramble out of trouble (I think that I heard that someplace).

(9) DB's Lockhart, Eaton, Williams and Longo do well. especially Lockhart and Williams.

(10) Death of Vince Lombardi helped give Giants 2 wins against Washington that year in close games. Lombardi stays healthy and Giants likely lose one or both of their games to the Skins. After Lombardi's death, Washington goes back to being more like the early 60's Redskins.

(11) This is not a top 10 list, ala Letterman. Giants beat Jets in inner city rivalry game. Jets have a rookie named Woodall at QB due to season ending injury to Joe Namath. RB Matt Snell also out with injury. Jets losing Namath and Snell is tremendous break for Giants and they capitalize with a win.

(12)The scheduling was different in 1970 with teams not playing the same teams outside of their divisions. Some teams catch tough teams and others have it easier. As it turns out, only one of Giants 6 opponents outside of their division have a winning record (the Rams). Giants don't take advantage going 3 and 3 in the 6 games.

(13) Pete Gogolak was one of the best place kickers in the league.

(14) Good reserves in RB's Joe Morrison and Bobby Duhon, TE Aaron Thomas, and G/T Charlie Harper.

(15) FB Tucker Frederickson stays healthy for a change and plays the entire season. His blocking and running no doubt was a plus in 1970.

(16) Fran Tarkenton was fabulous. My vote goes to 1970 for Tarkenton's greatest year.

For more info on the 1970 Giants, a very good source is Fran Tarkenton's book, "Broken Patterns" which focuses quite a bit on the Giants 1970 season.

Unfortunately for the New York Giants, Roger Staubach became the starting QB for the Dallas Cowboys in 1971, which made the Cowboys a much tougher team throughout the 1970's. Also, George Allen became the head coach of the Redskins in 1971 and traded about half the team away and most of their future draft choices. Washington became much tougher starting in 1971 with Allen. I think that Fran Tarkenton saw the handwriting on the wall in 1971 and decided that he wanted out of New York.

[oldecapecod11]

Meanwhile, a little later, in 1965, before it was fashionable...

What would you expect Rosey to smoke? Charlie was the Marlboro Man.

http://digitalpostercollection.com/wp-c ... Giants.jpg

[Bryan]

(1) The Cleveland Browns, in need of a QB, trade Paul Warfield to Miami for a rookie QB named Mike Phipps. To try to make up for the loss of WR Warfield the Browns trade DT Jim Kanicki and RB Ron Johnson to the Giants for WR Homer Jones. Kanicki becomes a solid starter for the Giants at right DT and Ron Johnson becomes a Giants star at running back. Homer Jones does not become a starter for Cleveland at WR.

This could have been the key trade for a massive Giants resurgance had they been able to sustain success. You can see how the trade would kind of make sense for the Browns...Kanicki was getting old and they viewed Johnson as a spare part with Leroy Kelly on the roster. Ron Johnson was a terrific player for the Giants, equally effective rushing or receiving. He was quite the workhorse, leading the NFL in carries twice and catching 40+ passes with a 10 yard average. When Johnson was healthy in 1970 and 1972, the Giants went 9-5 and 8-6. When he was injured in 1971, they fell to 4-10. It appears that the Giants overused Johnson, and he simply broke down after the 1973 season. But he was a very good RB in the early 70's.

[coachtj]

....12/20/'70; seems like just yesterday...back home to southern calif. for christmas break after playing ball in college, and a chance to see my boy george allen possibly coach his last game for the rams. the 8-4-1 rams must win over the resurgent 8-5 nyg to earn the first wc. ...while in tiger stadium lem barney(with some help from le beau and the rest of the defense)has a classic game(223 yards in returns)in shutting out the packers 20-0 to finish 10-4. as I watched the ram/nyg game unfold....remember the wind blowing through yankee stadium, and fran t. after his outstanding year struggling all day. the ram offense led by les josephson pounded out the yards on the ground in the 31-3 win. a quick evaluation note....really thought jim files was gonna have a long productive career as he playing strong for a rookie. not sure all the reasons why he did not become a pro bowl mlb? possibly '70 was his best year. tarkenton's book "broken patterns" is on my shelf....sure enjoyed his take on the season of '70. if nyg had won, and lions had lost to gbay ...would nyg have gotten the wc over detroit?

[Veeshik_ya]

....remember the wind blowing through yankee stadium

Your memory serves correct. According to Pro Football Archives the wind was 21 mph that day.

[oldecapecod11]

coachtj » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:22 am
"... the ram offense led by les josephson pounded out the yards on the ground in the 31-3 win."

There's a name that cudda been on a lot more Sports front pages.
Didn't his career end when he ruptured an achilles running out for introductions?
Talk about freaky...

[Saban1]

....12/20/'70; seems like just yesterday...back home to southern calif. for christmas break after playing ball in college, and a chance to see my boy george allen possibly coach his last game for the rams. the 8-4-1 rams must win over the resurgent 8-5 nyg to earn the first wc. ...while in tiger stadium lem barney(with some help from le beau and the rest of the defense)has a classic game(223 yards in returns)in shutting out the packers 20-0 to finish 10-4. as I watched the ram/nyg game unfold....remember the wind blowing through yankee stadium, and fran t. after his outstanding year struggling all day. the ram offense led by les josephson pounded out the yards on the ground in the 31-3 win. a quick evaluation note....really thought jim files was gonna have a long productive career as he playing strong for a rookie. not sure all the reasons why he did not become a pro bowl mlb? possibly '70 was his best year. tarkenton's book "broken patterns" is on my shelf....sure enjoyed his take on the season of '70. if nyg had won, and lions had lost to gbay ...would nyg have gotten the wc over detroit?

The Giants would have won their division in the east with a win over the Rams. Not sure if Dallas or Detroit would have been wild card. One of those teams would have missed the playoffs with a Giants win over the Rams.

[BD Sullivan]

coachtj » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:22 am
"... the ram offense led by les josephson pounded out the yards on the ground in the 31-3 win."

There's a name that cudda been on a lot more Sports front pages.
Didn't his career end when he ruptured an achilles running out for introductions?
Talk about freaky...

Not quite, and though it didn't end his career, it definitely affected the course of it:

In the 1968 preseason opener against the Browns, he pulled a calf muscle running out for introductions. It must have been a bad pull, since it took another two months--while doing his rehab (which included jumping rope) he blew out the achilles.

He was coming off an 800-yard rushing season in '67, and never topped that again, though his 1970 numbers were pretty good: 640 yards rushing. 44 receptions. After one season under Tommy Prothro, his numbers dropped, with Chuck Knox barely using him during 73-74.

[IvanNYC]

....12/20/'70; seems like just yesterday....back home to southern calif. for christmas break after playing ball in college, and a chance to see my boy george allen possibly coach his last game for the rams. the 8-4-1 rams must win over the resurgent 8-5 nyg to earn the first wc. ...

if nyg had won, and lions had lost to gbay ...would nyg have gotten the wc over detroit?

The Giants would have won their division in the east with a win over the Rams. Not sure if Dallas or Detroit would have been wild card. One of those teams would have missed the playoffs with a Giants win over the Rams.

That's correct as the Giants would have won the NFC East over Dallas based on better division record (6-2 to Cowboys' 5-3). The wildcard then would have been determined by a coin flip between Dallas and Detroit since they did not play head-to-head and both the Cowboys and Lions would have had 7-4 conference records.

[oldecapecod11]

Saban » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:17 pm
"What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.
I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.
BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957."
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coachtj » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:40 pm
"....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking."
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oldecapecod 11 wrote:
You both took the words from the tips of my fingers. This keyboard is practically making strokes of its own.
Yes! Yes! Yes! and Yes!
There was not a better trio in Football than Brown, Stroud and Wietecha in their day. It was an era when players
went to camp to get in shape after spending the off-season at their other jobs. They worked and did not have
the time to do drugs and beat up women and run dog shows.
Brown had a gym mat tied to a tree in his back yard. That was his blocking dummy - all year long.
Only a few know that much of the Giants' success earlier was Mel Hein's ACCURACY snapping the ball.
Well, Wietecha was selected in that mold. He could consistently hit the crossbar from the 10 at least nine
out of 10 times and did it often for the benefit of the press.
Toss into the mix he played 10 seasons and never missed a game. ('Course not too many did in those days...)
Stroud was. as tj states, rock solid. Charlie did not have golden wheels and yet, again per tj, there were very few sacks.
Whoops! Almost forgot... if you look at some old film and find a few rare stills, you'll see #79 and #66 on the goal line D.
Yup! That's Brown and Stroud.
Boo Hoo! I wish you guys would have commented on the exclusion of Marion M from the "Numbers Retired"
in Cuyahoga country...
One more kudo for Ray Wietecha... he snapped, among others, for Ben Agajanian and, if I recall, the placement
of the ball had to be slightly different and Ray got it there with no problem.
===
Saban wrote:
Jack Stroud was named at least to second team All-Pro every year from 1956 through 1962 except for 1958 when he missed a good part of the year because of injury. In 1963, center Ray Wietecha retired, so right tackle Greg Larson was moved to center in an effort to replace Wietecha. This left an opening at right tackle, so the Giants moved Stroud, who was 35 at the time, to right tackle from his usual position of right guard. The move probably cost Stroud any chance to make any All-Pro teams because he had some stiff competition from guys like Forrest Gregg, Dick Schafrath, Charley Bradshaw, and teammate Rosey Brown. Besides that, switching from guard to tackle is not always easy because the positions are really quite a bit different.
Anyway, Stroud apparently did well at his new position. The Giants easily led the NFL in points scored and QB Y.A. Tittle had his greatest year. Evidently, Tittle was well protected by his offensive line. Stroud was really a team player, making the move from guard to tackle had little benefit for him, but it helped the Giants. Bookie Bolin took the right guard spot in 1963.
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paulksandiego » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:27 pm
According to the All-Pro records, Stroud made AP and UPI All-NFL 2nd team in 1962 at OT, 1st Team All-NFL on the Football News and Detroit News teams, and All-East Team by The Sporting News all at OT. Is it possible that Stroud moved to RT in 1962?

#####

Finally! Finally, I found a photo but maybe I cheated. I found one at that oldestliving site
which has a number of great old photos.
This one shows the versatility of both Rosey Brown and Jack Stroud.
They were studs on the O-line and came in on the D in Goal Line short-yardage situations.
IN ADDITION TO THAT, they were on the blocking crew for Extra Point and Field Goal attempts by the opposition.
I wish I could say that Rosey got this one but I just don't know?
ENJOY...
(For those who don't know: 79 Rosey Brown, 66 Jack Stroud)