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Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:46 pm
by BernardB
JeffreyMiller wrote:
Hail Casares wrote:
JeffreyMiller wrote:The Colts were almost always good with Unitas, but his inclusion on a Mt Rushmore type monument has as much to do with his image and what it meant for the NFL between 1958 and 1970. Unitas was in essence the face of the league during that period, arguably the its most famous player until the likes of Joe Namath came along. Plus that crew cut and jawline make for a perfect statue figure ...
And the fact that statistically he was the greatest passer ever until the 1980's came along. You're talking about Unitas here like he was simply the crew cut QB of the best team in football and along for the ride rather than a guy who was routinely leading the NFL in passing yardage and TD's and putting up passer ratings 25% above the league average. Unitas from 1957-1967 was ridiculous.
No doubt ... I was just trying to say that he is not a candidate simply because of titles or stats ... Unitas transcends the game, much the way Babe Ruth or Gordie Howe did in their sports.

Winning those two titles so early had a halo effect on how Unitas was perceived. I think you are absolutely right that his face/image and the league's became entwined.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:24 pm
by Veeshik_ya
JohnH19 wrote:The off the field stuff - true or not - occurred while he was with the Jets in 2008 and has been forgotten by most...at least it should be. I don`t think his poor 2010 season did any more to harm Brett`s legacy than Y.A. Tittle`s 1964 season did to harm his.
The real embarrassing stuff happened while with the Jets, yes. But remember...it came out later. He also made a primma donna ass out of himself when he played a disingenuous game of cat and mouse with the Vikings prior to training camp that last year. It all seemed to come to a hub that last year.

And "true or not"? Well, the photographic evidence is pretty hard to argue with. Not that I prefer to think about it, quite frankly. As for whether its been forgotten by most, not sure I agree.

I get what you're saying with the Tittle comparison, though. It's not uncommon for a former great to go out like a lamb; it doesn't undermine what they accomplished. But in Favre's case, all the drama kind of stains him.

I prefer to think of that 2009 NFC Championship game vs. New Orleans as the quintessential example of the warrior he was.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:27 pm
by Veeshik_ya
BernardB wrote:All opinions are not created equal. Everything depends on the argument standing behind them. Every once in awhile someone comes along with a well-reasoned argument that cuts through all kinds of subjective biases.
Totally agree. Sometimes opinions matter, but it usually comes down to how well-reasoned it is.

Cooked green beans taste horrible. You don't think so. That's truly a matter of opinion.

It might be my opinion the sun won't rise tomorrow. But I'll probably be wrong.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:33 pm
by conace21
Reaser wrote:
Mark L. Ford wrote:I had hoped that the fad of "Mount Rushmore of _____" lists had gone the same way as spinning hubcap attachments.
Yup. I think I said similar a few years ago but it's cheap and easy content tied to Presidents Day every year, and pretty much every football related site does it or has done it. Harmless enough but a ranking of the top 100 QB's would probably be more interesting.

Can't remember if it was a year or two years ago, but a comment I found funny on another site was something along the lines of: "Wouldn't having Manning and Brady on the QB Mount Rushmore be like putting Clinton and Bush on the real Mount Rushmore?"
I enjoyed the Mount Rushmore threads on the old site a few years ago, where we did a Mr. Rushmore for every single franchise, as well as every position. A nice way to fill the time in the off-season.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:34 am
by JohnH19
Veeshik_ya wrote:
JohnH19 wrote:The off the field stuff - true or not - occurred while he was with the Jets in 2008 and has been forgotten by most...at least it should be. I don`t think his poor 2010 season did any more to harm Brett`s legacy than Y.A. Tittle`s 1964 season did to harm his.
The real embarrassing stuff happened while with the Jets, yes. But remember...it came out later. He also made a primma donna ass out of himself when he played a disingenuous game of cat and mouse with the Vikings prior to training camp that last year. It all seemed to come to a hub that last year.

And "true or not"? Well, the photographic evidence is pretty hard to argue with. Not that I prefer to think about it, quite frankly. As for whether its been forgotten by most, not sure I agree.

I get what you're saying with the Tittle comparison, though. It's not uncommon for a former great to go out like a lamb; it doesn't undermine what they accomplished. But in Favre's case, all the drama kind of stains him.

I prefer to think of that 2009 NFC Championship game vs. New Orleans as the quintessential example of the warrior he was.
There's photographic evidence? I didn't realize it ever became public. Of course, I didn't pursue it, either.

By "forgotten" I meant let's let it go already. It has nothing to do with how good a QB he was.

As for the cat and mouse game; Brett did not intend on coming back in 2010 but Hutchinson, Longwell and Allen went to Mississippi to talk him into it. When you come as close as the Vikings did in 2009 it would be foolish for the team not to want him back and it would have been very difficult for him to walk away after having one of his very best seasons.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:11 am
by Reaser
JohnH19 wrote:When you come as close as the Vikings did in 2009 it would be foolish for the team not to want him back and it would have been very difficult for him to walk away after having one of his very best seasons.
The legacy stuff is kind of ridiculous, similar to the multiple "Manning's Legacy" threads on the old forum.

I view Favre's last 4 years kind of different I guess, especially considering repeated incorrect predictions of his demise by media and in comment sections and football forums during that time (and agree conace21, those team threads were good downtime filler) ...

Before 2007: "Favre's done, he sucks, he should retire, hurting his legacy" = Plays good, team goes to NFC Championship.
Before 2008: Same people, "Favre's done, he sucks, he shouldn't be going to NY, hurting his legacy" = Until injury he played good and team was considered SB contender.
Before 2009: Same people, "Favre's done, he sucks, he shouldn't be going to MIN, hurting his legacy" = Plays great, one of his best years, team goes to NFC Championship.
Before 2010: Same people, "Favre's done, he sucks, he shouldn't play another year, hurting his legacy" = Finally is done. Those people go on about how they knew it and 'called it'. I laugh because when you say the same thing year after year and are wrong more times than not, you didn't call anything.

TMZ stuff aside, his 'legacy' being 'ruined' was predetermined by media that 'hated' to talk about the will he/won't he play so much that they literally talked about "Favre Watch" for hours a day and led off a majority of their coverage and shows by having people placed outside of Favre's home. Then there's the fans who blamed Favre for the ridiculous media coverage, and most of them mixed with some other constantly wrong 'fans' were constantly wrong about Favre's quality year after year, until the end when they 'called it' . . .

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:24 am
by luckyshow
The Bizarro Mt. Rushmore: James Buchanan, William Henry Harrison, Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce.

The 4th on the Mt. Fuji might be: Kazuhisa Inao. pitcher, who had 4 seasons of 30 or more wins. From 1957 to 1959, he won 98 games. In 1961 he won 42...

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:50 pm
by bachslunch
luckyshow wrote:The Bizarro Mt. Rushmore: James Buchanan, William Henry Harrison, Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce.
Buchanan, Fillmore, and Pierce have strong cases, though Harrison's run was really too brief to judge. Maybe Warren Harding or Ulysses Grant or Herbert Hoover could grab the last spot.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:55 pm
by mwald
Bob Gill wrote:I often say Luckman and Starr are the most underappreciated of the top quarterbacks.
People who evaluate Starr’s place in history generally fall into two camps: those who think he’s underappreciated, slighted by historians and media, and those who view him as a game manager or caretaker of Lombardi’s system.

He’s probably both, but evidence weighs in favor of the latter.

Any QB with a 5-1 record in championship games over eight years probably deserves to be on the short list of all-time greats. Starr also has a W-L record of 77-23-4 and bested the league average for Yards Per Pass Attempt from 1959-1967 (YPPA might not be the best way to measure a QB but it’s probably the most consistent over time). Tough to top those numbers.

But he also had a losing record before and after Lombardi and shouldered less of the load than other championship quarterbacks of his era. If a running game and a defense are a quarterback’s best friend, Starr was better positioned for success than his championship peers.

Some modern analysts have tried to reposition the 60s Packers as a passing team because they passed efficiently, pointing out how three Packers championship teams (1965, 1966, 1967) averaged less than (or equal to) 4 yards per carry on the ground. But almost all championship teams pass efficiently, so it’s no surprise the 60s Packers would share that trait. And yards per carry isn’t necessarily the best way to judge success on the ground.

How often and when did a team run—what is their identity?—might be a better approach. The Packers were a dominant ball control team that ran more often and racked up more first downs on the ground than almost any team of their era.

Since rush attempts usually favor the winning team (teams with a lead run out the clock on the ground), comparing Lombardi’s Packers to the other championship teams of the era makes sense. Like the Packers, these teams had halftime leads in most of the games they played. With rare exception the Packers passed less, ran more, and achieved more first downs on the ground than the others.

Team/Percent Running Plays

1962 Packers 62%
1961 Packers 61%
1966 Packers 60%
1962 Texans 60%
1967 Packers 59%
1965 Packers 59%
1964 Browns 56%
1964 Bills 55%
1963 Bears 55%
1966 Chiefs 54%
1959 Colts 54%
1963 Chargers 53%
1960 Eagles 51%
1960 Oilers 50%
1967 Raiders 50%
1961 Oilers 48%
1965 Bills 46%

Team/Percent 1st Downs Rushing

1961 Packers 55%
1962 Packers 55%
1967 Packers 51%
1964 Browns 50%
1962 Texans 49%
1963 Bears 48%
1963 Chargers 47%
1964 Bills 47%
1966 Packers 46%
1965 Packers 45%
1966 Chiefs 43%
1959 Colts 39%
1965 Bills 37%
1960 Oilers 35%
1961 Oilers 35%
1967 Raiders 34%
1960 Eagles 31%

Turning to defense, Lombardi’s Packers allowed 15.4 points per game from 1959-1967, easily topping Baltimore’s 18.8. And using the same comparison as above, the Packers were superior on defense to all their championship peers except the 1963 Chicago Bears.

Team/Def PPG

1963 Bears 10.3
1962 Packers 10.6
1966 Packers 11.6
1967 Packers 14.9
1961 Packers 15.9
1965 Packers 16.0
1965 Bills 16.1
1962 Texans 16.6
1967 Raiders 16.6
1964 Bills 17.3
1961 Oilers 17.3
1963 Chargers 18.2
1966 Chiefs 19.7
1960 Oilers 20.4
1960 Eagles 20.5
1964 Browns 20.9
1959 Colts 20.9

Team/Def Passer Rating

1963 Bears 34.8
1967 Packers 41.5
1961 Oilers 42.1
1962 Packers 43.4
1959 Colts 45.1
1966 Packers 46.1
1967 Raiders 47.9
1965 Packers 48.2
1966 Chiefs 48.8
1960 Eagles 49.1
1962 Texans 51.8
1961 Packers 53.7
1965 Bills 54.2
1963 Chargers 55.5
1964 Bills 60.9
1960 Oilers 69.7
1964 Browns 75.6

Then there’s the Lombardi factor. Starr has a winning record under Lombardi, but lost under Blackburn, McClean, Bengston, and Devine. But other quarterbacks often mentioned as the greatest ever won under more than one coach. Unitas won under Ewbank, Shula, and McCafferty. Elway won under Reeves, Shanahan, and Phillips. Montana won under Walsh, Seifert, and Schottenheimer.

Teams change. Talent moves on or gets old. Comparing W-L records to other quarterbacks might be unfair because the factors aren’t the same. And does the quarterback make the coach or vice versa? Wherever you stand on these points, Starr struggled to win on the field outside the Lombardi years.

Starr is one of the greatest winners of all time, but he had more help than most. Many fail when opportunity calls. When Starr got his opportunity he delivered. But supported by a defense and running attack that controlled the game at a level superior to other championship teams of his era, he was in a situation tailor-made for quarterback success.

Re: 'Mt Rushmore' All-Time QBs

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:12 pm
by conace21
I think it's fair to say that Starr would not have enjoyed near the same level of success if he had never played for Lombardi. But I don't think Lombardi would have won five championships with just any QB. It took a certain type of player to play for Lombardi. Starr had brains, courage, and leadership ability....he was an extension of Lombardi on the field.

Kind of like Montana. If Joe is drafted by any other team, he does not win 4 Super Bowls. Now, I don't think he would have been a mediocre player on another team. He had the accuracy, quick feet, quick mind, and grace under pressure to play for anyone, albeit not at the same level that he reached with SF. But I don't think SF wins 4 Super Bowls without #16 back there.