Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

RichardBak wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:32 pm Crazy times we live in.

Crazier than a time when the color of your skin determined whether you could play in the major leagues or not?

I think it's a good time to see if NFL would ever reconsider adding in AAFC stats ...

of course, these days it does not matter ... Pro Football References uses them and that is the "encyclopedia" these days ... for good or for bad.

The HOF always used them ... Cleveland connection, I suppose. Don Smith invented (with a committee) the NFL passer rating and when NFL would not include, say, Otto Graham's AAFC stuff but the HOF publications did ...

But the Offical Record Book ... the big NFL volume ... does not included them.

Mark wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:17 pm

RichardBak wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:32 pm Crazy times we live in.

Crazier than a time when the color of your skin determined whether you could play in the major leagues or not?

Papa, don't preach.

I think of the options available (inclusion, continued exclusion or a "Separate but Equal" category) the proper choice was made.

It'd be great to see the NFL include AAFC stats as "official."
It is really difficult to appreciate the totality of some folks careers without including the AAFC in their resume.
Is there any chance that'll every happen?

RichardBak wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:35 pm

Mark wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:17 pm

RichardBak wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:32 pm Crazy times we live in.

Crazier than a time when the color of your skin determined whether you could play in the major leagues or not?

Papa, don't preach.

(IMO) It isn't "preaching" to bring up the inequities of the past.
As a historical organization these are things that should be included in our understanding of our game(s).

One couldn't rightly discuss the American Civil War without mentioning Slavery.
One can't rightly discuss the Negro Leagues without mentioning racism.

In terms of integration versus segregation in professional football as it relates to the NFL, the overall timeline can be divided into the following periods:

• Pre-NFL (18xx – 1919)
• First Integrated NFL (1920 – 1933)
• Segregated NFL (1934 – 1945)
• NFL Reintegration (1946 - 1961)
• Second Integrated NFL (1962 – Present)

During the Segregated NFL period (1934-1945), zero black athletes played in the NFL. The league passed on signing several outstanding black athletes, including Ozzie Simmons, Jackie Robinson, Kenny Washington, Marion Motley, Bill Willis, and Woody Strode.

Meanwhile, many Black athletes found opportunities to play in other leagues and on independent teams.

Even after the NFL Reintegration period began in 1946, many African Americans played professional football in leagues outside the NFL.

Should statistics from the following leagues be incorporated into NFL statistics to capture stats from these Black athletes?

Midwest Football League (1935 - 1939)
Northwest Football League (1935-1938)
American Football Association (1936-1941, 1946-1950)
American Football League (1936-1937)

Again, the answer is obvious: No.

It's not a matter of separate-but-equal but of separate and unequal--not because of individual athletes or the color of their skin--but because of the leagues themselves not being equal.

Should the NFL perhaps MENTION that players may have played in other leagues and perhaps mention their statistics in those leagues? Sure! It's great information to have.

Should MLB Include official (but not combined) statistics for the Negro Leagues in its record books. Absolutely!

One of the outcomes of bringing Negro League statistics wholly into MLB statistics is this: When we look at the combined statistics, we no longer see the color line, which was a terrible thing in our history.

When we look at combined statistics, we're no longer reminded that we once had a color line, and what a terrible thing that was.

You raise some valid points, Ryan.
And I am not arguing against them, per se.

I am all in favor of a more nuanced understanding of history.
I don't know that there's a truly satisfactory solution to this issue.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pau ... 2405290110

Keep in mind the sportswriter is African-American.

Terry Baldshaw wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:04 pm https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pau ... 2405290110

Keep in mind the sportswriter is African-American.

From the article, and spot on with my thinking:

The Negro Leagues should never be forgotten and should stand on their own. We should never forget why those leagues existed and we should never forget those players as pioneers in many ways. They kept baseball alive for Black Americans and gave Black Americans hope, as well as role models and heroes.

This need to try erasing that injustice, to whitewash and sugarcoat segregation and act like it never happened, is offensive to me and every other person that looks like me. These things happened in our history, and all of these institutions like Major League Baseball have done since 2020 would love to make us forget.

We won’t, nor should we we act like Major League Baseball’s history is suddenly cleansed because of this silly revision of history.

RyanChristiansen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 10:40 am I don’t see anyone in this discussion saying that Otto Graham’s AAFC statistics shouldn’t be considered alongside his NFL statistics, but lots of folks are saying Negro League statistics shouldn’t be considered alongside MLB (separate American and National leagues, BTW) statistics.

I would have an easier time with the AAFC stats being counted because the league was singular and stable. You had basically the same teams every year playing regular schedules every year and the league existed for 4 years before being partially absorbed by the NFL. The plurality of the Negro Leagues is a problem in itself, and you are incorporating statistics over a 28-year span of players who never played in the MLB. But as you said, there is an argument to be made that the AAFC stats should not be counted because they weren't in the NFL. NFL stats are NFL stats. You can interpret them, analyze them, but they are indisputable. Brian Brennan once had 255 receiving yards in a game...sure, it was a replacement player game in 1987, but it was an NFL game.

There is no logic behind including Negro League stats into the MLB record book. Its just pandering, IMO. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it."