Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Brian wolf wrote:Another huge question ...

Had Namath gotten knee surgery as soon as possible after the NC State game, who would have drafted him and when ? Would the Jets still have gotten him or another team ? It's still hard to believe that he didn't get the surgery sooner but maybe the Alabama doctors simply thought he could play with enough rest, though he reinjured it in the Florida game. Even after his surgery, Dr. Nicholas for the Jets thought he could only play four seasons but he may have said that to motivate Joe's rehabilitation ...

If Joe Namath had been operated on after injuring the knee he would have been out for the rest of the 1964 season. He wouldn't have been drafted near as high nor for that kind of money. The Alabama doctors under Bear Bryant's authority wanted Namath to keep playing. Namath's knee would probably have been healthier with surgery after the NC State game.

SAINT LOUIS Joe...

Not quite the same ring to it!

Just the same, imagine a healthy Joe quarterbacking those Winner teams of '66, '68, and '70. Likely no three-game, season-ending skid the first and latter of those campaigns. He still being healthy in the mid-'70s and he piloting those Coryell teams something to think about as well. Given he being banged up most of his career, he posting that Historic colossal upset that was Super Bowl III, and he being on a team in the biggest market (and..."I guarantee it!") is, of course, the recipe to he being in Canton. Would a simple mere Lombardi as a Cardinal have been able to do the trick (as well as "qualify" him for the 'Brady Bunch')? Sure enough if he's healthy most of his career thus able to put up the stats, APs, PBs, etc.

And I didn't know until just now that college teams back then were actually awarded the National Championship before the bowl season! Weird. 'Bama, of course, was unbeaten at the end of the regular season in '64 and actually awarded, already, #1 for the final polls before playing and losing to Texas a month later! Sure enough the Tide gets it done had the game actually had the final polls at stake, but still. Likely they and Jimmy/Jerry's Razorbacks share it being that Arkansas also was unbeaten, and also beat Texas.

Even had Namath gotten immediate knee surgery after the NC State game and missed the rest of his senior season, I still believe the Jets would have taken him #1 in the draft. Of course, the money would have been different but I believe Joe would have still signed with the Jets because Bear Bryant knew Weeb was a winner and could develop him. Without the hoopla of the big signing, considering the Jets probably would have went after John Huarte as well, Namath could have just focused on his rehabilitation and hopefully, getting at least 75% of his mobility back depending upon the surgery.
With his great athleticism and arm, its doubtful Joe would have went below the second round, regardless.

Okay so the premise is Namath signs with the Cardinals. Going into the 1965 season Charley Johnson is coming off of a decent season leading the Cardinals to second place in the East with a 9-3-2 record he leads the NFL in passing yards but also interceptions.

So based on the above Johnson is a bit of a gunslinger. If you follow through the 1965 season the Cardinals start 4-1 and then only win one game down the stretch. I would think at some point during that collapse Namath becomes the starter. If he fairs well the 1965-66 offseason is interesting because the Cardinals need to decide between the two. If they go with Namath, Johnson is then traded, this part I think is the most critical part. If they get good talent or picks that pan out in return then that is where the success of Namath leading the Cardinals to the post season may happen. If they don't you basically end up with Namath on a mediocre team with similar results maybe a bit better than Johnson but not seeing St. Louis in a Super Bowl in the 1960's or early 1970's.

Another twist is how this affects Jim Hart. If he is drafted by the Cardinals and sticks around he may see significant playing time due to Namath injuries. Similar to his playing time behind Johnson for injuries and military commitments. This could lead to the Cardinals by the early 70's having a frustrated starting QB in Namath and a promising starter behind him. So they may have to trade one of them.

The bottom line unless the Namath signing makes the Cardinals draft better and trade better I don't think your seeing a major difference in the Cardinals record thru the 1960's. Maybe an extra win here or there?

JKelly wrote:Okay so the premise is Namath signs with the Cardinals. Going into the 1965 season Charley Johnson is coming off of a decent season leading the Cardinals to second place in the East with a 9-3-2 record he leads the NFL in passing yards but also interceptions.

So based on the above Johnson is a bit of a gunslinger. If you follow through the 1965 season the Cardinals start 4-1 and then only win one game down the stretch. I would think at some point during that collapse Namath becomes the starter. If he fairs well the 1965-66 offseason is interesting because the Cardinals need to decide between the two. If they go with Namath, Johnson is then traded, this part I think is the most critical part. If they get good talent or picks that pan out in return then that is where the success of Namath leading the Cardinals to the post season may happen. If they don't you basically end up with Namath on a mediocre team with similar results maybe a bit better than Johnson but not seeing St. Louis in a Super Bowl in the 1960's or early 1970's.

Another twist is how this affects Jim Hart. If he is drafted by the Cardinals and sticks around he may see significant playing time due to Namath injuries. Similar to his playing time behind Johnson for injuries and military commitments. This could lead to the Cardinals by the early 70's having a frustrated starting QB in Namath and a promising starter behind him. So they may have to trade one of them.

The bottom line unless the Namath signing makes the Cardinals draft better and trade better I don't think your seeing a major difference in the Cardinals record thru the 1960's. Maybe an extra win here or there?

If Namath gets the Cardinals an extra win here or there, they can make the playoffs. One more win is major if it puts them in the playoffs.
Namath comes in at the end of the year in 1966, I doubt the Cardinals go 1-4. One loss was to the 3-11 Falcons. (pro football reference says Bakken was 1-7 on FGs that game. That can't be right can it?) If they have Namath and beat Dallas in the 12th game, I know big if, they face the Packers in the title game.

With Namath on the Cardinals, would they draft Hart? Or if they did why keep him around? AND does it being St Louis and not New York City take the luster away from Namath? St Louis attitude isn't really bright lights big city, brash and cocky.

JKelly wrote:....The bottom line unless the Namath signing makes the Cardinals draft better and trade better I don't think your seeing a major difference in the Cardinals record thru the 1960's. Maybe an extra win here or there?

I don't know... it could be that we're drastically undervaluing Namath's talent here...
That might be like saying Brady will bring the Buccaneers one more win...
(adjusted for eras)

On the other hand (and as mentioned above) coaching is a big part of the total picture.
Weeb Ewbank is a big upgrade over Wally Lemm or Charley Winner...

An overlooked thing about Namath was his ability to bring white and black players together with the Jets. Not sure about the Giants but Joe definitely would have helped or purposely addressed racial issues with the Cardinals.

7DnBrnc53 wrote:

Brian wolf wrote:Weeb Ewbank was an underrated coach but at heart, he was a player scout. I believe once he took the Jets job, he built a discussion with Bear Bryant at Alabama about wanting Namath. Bryant of course was devastated by Namath's bad knee injury his senior season and knew Joe had to ask for all the money he could get in the pros and with Bite helping him out, watched as Werblin was willing to pay top dollar with the blessing of the NBC Network, who Werblin helped negotiate the upcoming rights package for AFL games to broadcast.

The Giants thought too small, not realizing the opportunity that let slip through their hands but with Namath now to the enemy side, they would either pony up more money for college talent or help bring a future merger that helped Joe make the HOF ...

The Giants could have had Namath and Matt Snell (the year before). If they get them, NBC and the AFL may not have done business, and who knows what happens to the young league at that point without that new TV contract.

Heck they HAD Maynard as well at one point

Don Maynard, played in the two most important games in NFL history. Super Bowl III and the Greatest Game Ever Played

The Cardinals also moved into Busch Stadium in 1966. Astroturf

What effect would that have had on Namath's knees?

The stadium was natural grass till 1970. Had Namath played there, he wouldnt have had the crazy winds in late november or december like Shea ... Remember too, even Sonny Werblin couldnt convince the Mets to allow the Jets to play early games in the stadium so the Jets had to wait till the Mets were eliminated in baseball. Not sure if he would have had that problem or not at Busch with the baseball team being so good ...