Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Rupert Patrick wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

There was a formation like the Shotgun back in the 40's, they just didn't have a name for it. If you watch film of the 1945 NFL Championship Game, Baugh was working out of a deep (5-7 yards) snap formation when he threw the pass from his end zone that hit the goal post. The Lions were also using a similar formation in 1945, at least against the Rams in the 11/22 game. Philadelphia was also using the deep snap against the Cards in the 1947 NFL Title Game.

The Redskins used the Dutch Meyer spread formation, which Baugh had played in at TCU. The Lions were using the Notre Dame Box in 1945, along with a couple of other variations from the Notre Dame shift. Like several NFL teams during the early years of the T formation, the Eagles in 1947 used both the single wing and the T.

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

It was good old Clark Shaughnessy, then an assistant coach with the Bears, who came up with the defense against the shotgun.

Hickey actually rotated three QBs when he used the shotgun. Kilmer was the running QB, Tittle the passing QB, and Bobby Waters was the QB who was fairly good at both.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

It was good old Clark Shaughnessy, then an assistant coach with the Bears, who came up with the defense against the shotgun.

Hickey actually rotated three QBs when he used the shotgun. Kilmer was the running QB, Tittle the passing QB, and Bobby Waters was the QB who was fairly good at both.

If they ever start enshrining assistant coaches in the HOF, Shaughnessy should be one of the first in line ...

Tobin Rote was in the shotgun in '53. The "Ronzani spread" was used heavily vs the Rams 10/11/53.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

It was good old Clark Shaughnessy, then an assistant coach with the Bears, who came up with the defense against the shotgun.

Wasn't George Allen a part of the Bears' staff at that time?

JohnR wrote:Tobin Rote was in the shotgun in '53. The "Ronzani spread" was used heavily vs the Rams 10/11/53.

They called it the "R Formation," for Rote and the coach, Gene Ronzani. The Packers actually used it for the first time in 1951 against the Bears, when Rote ran for 150 yards.

It wasn't really the shotgun. Typically, the Packers split both ends, put a halfback in one slot and had the other halfback and the fullback flanking Rote. He often rolled out behind one of the backs and had a pass-run option.

I'm surprised to hear they used it in 1953--not that I doubt you. I thought they gave up on it after 1952, but I couldn't see the away games back then.

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

Yes, that ended the every down use of the shotgun but not its use in passing situations. I have seen films of teams using it in the mid 1960s. (I think the Giants used it in on occasion in 1964 to try and counter the Eagle safety blitz if my memory is correct) I'm curious why teams stopped using it on 3rd downs. Was it too many bad snaps? I think it seems there is a general consensus that the shotgun was not used after that 61 Bears-SF game until the Cowboys resurrected it in 1975 but that is not the case.

BD Sullivan wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

It was good old Clark Shaughnessy, then an assistant coach with the Bears, who came up with the defense against the shotgun.

Wasn't George Allen a part of the Bears' staff at that time?

Yes, but he'd yet to take over as DC from Clark.

JeffreyMiller wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

It was good old Clark Shaughnessy, then an assistant coach with the Bears, who came up with the defense against the shotgun.

Hickey actually rotated three QBs when he used the shotgun. Kilmer was the running QB, Tittle the passing QB, and Bobby Waters was the QB who was fairly good at both.

If they ever start enshrining assistant coaches in the HOF, Shaughnessy should be one of the first in line ...

Amen, he was a mad scientist.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

Todd Pence wrote:I remember reading in the old Neft-Cohen Encyclopedia that George Halas developed a defense for the shotgun by lining up a lineman over center. The Niners scrapped the shotgun after being ripped 31-0.

Hickey did originally design the shotgun as a running formation to take advantage of quarterback Billy Kilmer's running ability.

There was a formation like the Shotgun back in the 40's, they just didn't have a name for it. If you watch film of the 1945 NFL Championship Game, Baugh was working out of a deep (5-7 yards) snap formation when he threw the pass from his end zone that hit the goal post. The Lions were also using a similar formation in 1945, at least against the Rams in the 11/22 game. Philadelphia was also using the deep snap against the Cards in the 1947 NFL Title Game.

The play by play guys literally called it the "short punt" formation.

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... s.html?m=0