"Three Studs on the O-Line" article

[Saban1]

Saban » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:17 pm
"What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.
I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.
BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957."----
coachtj » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:40 pm
"....during the '55 season when nyg was struggling; st. vince discussed with the offensive line coach a new approach to blocking(zone). during the remainder of '55 through '58 the nyg ground attack improved(especially considering what was gained in '53). stroud when healthy was a rock solid performer, and wietecha was among the best centers in the league. no matter who played rt. tackle(usually yelvington), or left guard(austin and others)....they performed at a high level. based upon his age(he was one of the youngest players in the league)and improvement mr. rosey brown became an elite left tackle; and in my opinion one of the best ever at his position. check the sacks allowed numbers by nyg during this era; these guys could run block, yet they were by far the best in the league at pass blocking."

- - - - -

You both took the words from the tips of my fingers. This keyboard is practically making strokes of its own.
Yes! Yes! Yes! and Yes!
There was not a better trio in Football than Brown, Stroud and Wietecha in their day. It was an era when players
went to camp to get in shape after spending the off-season at their other jobs. They worked and did not have
the time to do drugs and beat up women and run dog shows.
Brown had a gym mat tied to a tree in his back yard. That was his blocking dummy - all year long.
Only a few know that much of the Giants' success earlier was Mel Hein's ACCURACY snapping the ball.
Well, Wietecha was selected in that mold. He could consistently hit the crossbar from the 10 at least nine
out of 10 times and did it often for the benefit of the press.
Toss into the mix he played 10 seasons and never missed a game. ('Course not too many did in those days...)
Stroud was. as tj states, rock solid. Charlie did not have golden wheels and yet, again per tj, there were very few sacks.
Whoops! Almost forgot... if you look at some old film and find a few rare stills, you'll see #79 and #66 on the goal line D.
Yup! That's Brown and Stroud.
Boo Hoo! I wish you guys would have commented on the exclusion of Marion M from the "Numbers Retired"
in Cuyahoga country...
One more kudo for Ray Wietecha... he snapped, among others, for Ben Agajanian and, if I recall, the placement
of the ball had to be slightly different and Ray got it there with no problem.

Jack Stroud was named at least to second team All-Pro every year from 1956 through 1962 except for 1958 when he missed a good part of the year because of injury. In 1963, center Ray Wietecha retired, so right tackle Greg Larson was moved to center in an effort to replace Wietecha. This left an opening at right tackle, so the Giants moved Stroud, who was 35 at the time, to right tackle from his usual position of right guard. The move probably cost Stroud any chance to make any All-Pro teams because he had some stiff competition from guys like Forrest Gregg, Dick Schafrath, Charley Bradshaw, and teammate Rosey Brown. Besides that, switching from guard to tackle is not always easy because the positions are really quite a bit different.

Anyway, Stroud apparently did well at his new position. The Giants easily led the NFL in points scored and QB Y.A. Tittle had his greatest year. Evidently, Tittle was well protected by his offensive line. Stroud was really a team player, making the move from guard to tackle had little benefit for him, but it helped the Giants. Bookie Bolin took the right guard spot in 1963.

According to the All-Pro records, Stroud made AP and UPI All-NFL 2nd team in 1962 at OT, 1st Team All-NFL on the Football News and Detroit News teams, and All-East Team by The Sporting News all at OT. Is it possible that Stroud moved to RT in 1962?

According to Pro Football Reference, Jack Stroud did play offensive right tackle in 1962 and Greg Larson played right guard that year. PFR does have some mistakes, but I think that they may be right on this one.

Teammate Rosey Brown and Forrest Gregg were almost automatics as first team All-Pro offensive tackles in 1962 and were named that by the AP and UP. Stroud was named 2nd team All-Pro by the AP and UP at OT and also 1st team All-Conference by the Sporting News as Paulksandiego said. Don't know about the Detroit News, but that is probably true as well.

So, it looks like Greg Larson and Jack Stroud switched positions in 1962. In 1963, Larson took over at center for the retired Wietecha and Bookie Bolin took over at right guard for the Giants. Apparently, Stroud was shut out of any All-Pro recognition in 1963 with the emergence of Dick Schafrath and Charley Bradshaw to some All-Pro teams and Rosey Brown and Forrest Gregg being practically automatic picks. Jack Stroud was 35 in 1963, but I doubt if there was much drop off, if any, in his play.

[SixtiesFan]

While working on a little project, I had reason to glance at both "Browns" web sites.
Something just LEAPED from the page and SMACK! But... it was something that was MISSING!
Guess what?
Neither the Baltimore "Browns" nor the "Imitation" Browns have retired a number to honor Marion Motley.
The crumbling Browns of the Cuyahoga have #76 retired for "The Toe" but nary a digit for Motley.
Though NOT a Browns' fan for more reasons than the shabby way they always treated my bloved Giants,
I still found this very disappointed.
I mean: Great is Great - no matter what!

What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.

I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.

BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957.

I remember the Giant-Brown rivalry in the early 1960's. It was the biggest team rivalry of the time. A lot was also made of the "duel" between Jim Brown and Giant MLB Sam Huff.

[Saban1]

While working on a little project, I had reason to glance at both "Browns" web sites.
Something just LEAPED from the page and SMACK! But... it was something that was MISSING!
Guess what?
Neither the Baltimore "Browns" nor the "Imitation" Browns have retired a number to honor Marion Motley.
The crumbling Browns of the Cuyahoga have #76 retired for "The Toe" but nary a digit for Motley.
Though NOT a Browns' fan for more reasons than the shabby way they always treated my bloved Giants,
I still found this very disappointed.
I mean: Great is Great - no matter what!

What!! The shabby way the Browns treated your Giants? What about the way Gifford, Webster, Huff, Robustelli and company treated the Browns during their salad years from 1956-63. They practically got Paul Brown fired.

I know that you are an old time fan like me, but most here are too young to remember what a really bitter rivalry that the Giants and Browns had.

BTW, Speaking of the three studs on the offensive line, how about Rosey Brown, Ray Wietecha, and Jack Stroud for the three studs on those Giants teams. Joining them in 1959 was Darrell Dess and Greg Larson in 1961 with Bill Austin through 1957.

I remember the Giant-Brown rivalry in the early 1960's. It was the biggest team rivalry of the time. A lot was also made of the "duel" between Jim Brown and Giant MLB Sam Huff.

Yes, I remember how the media made a thing about it being Sam Huff against Jim Brown. Huff was a great player, but there were also guys like Robustelli, Grier, Modzelewski, Katcavage, Svoboda, Svare, Scott, and Livingston. Tom Landry was defensive coordinator and his "flex" system helped funnel the runners into Huff, or as Paul Brown put it, "Huff was part of a system that allowed him to make a lot of tackles" (probably not the exact quote but close).

Cleveland had a decent OL, with guys like Jim Ray Smith, Mike McCormack, and Gene Hickerson. To me, it was always a game between 2 tough teams. Jim Brown was the star for Cleveland, but there were many great players on both teams.

[oldecapecod11]

SixtiesFan » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:17 am
"I remember the Giant-Brown rivalry in the early 1960's. It was the biggest team rivalry of the time. A lot was also made
of the "duel" between Jim Brown and Giant MLB Sam Huff."

It might well be the biggest team rivalry of ALL time. Sure... the Bears, Lions and Packers went on to form the nucleus
of the black and blue division and the Giants and Cowboys and Giants and Eagles had what seemed like a rivalry but nothing
was as intense of the Browns' - Giants' affair in the era of Jim Brown and Sam Huff.
There were six "dailies" that covered the world's capitol in those days and Sports' headlines screamed from the tabloid
back pages of the News and the Mirror just as loudly as hard news leapt from the front pages and the broadsheet Tribune,
Times and afternoon Journal-American that took a back seat to the tabloid Sports.
Unless the Eagles were en route to a banner year or the Redskins were going to fake a run at the Eastern crown, the focus
was on Jim Brown and Sam Huff.
If one was to believe the New York press, the only chance Jim Brown had for the rushing title was dependent on how many yards he gained versus Huff and the Gtants.
Conversely, they shouted that the only responsibility Sam Huff had was to personally keep Brown from winning another crown.
Sometimes, the outcome of the game was less important although both teams were usually pretty near the top of the division.
It was fun to watch; fun to read about; and fun to share if your guy won the battle.
There was an upscale bar on the mezzanine of the Pan-Am building named Sherry's.
A regular would walk in and scream "Seventy!"
In unison, the patrons would shout: "Treat 'em rough, Sam Huff."
And they had a cheer for almost every number on the roster.
Yup! They were the New York Football Giants - and maybe they still are.

[Saban1]

Interesting thread.

For long term greatness, I like the Cleveland Browns starting in 1946 through the 1950's and 1960's.

(1) AAFC years (1946-1949): Tackles were Lou Groza and Lou Rymkus. Groza is in the HOF and Rymkus probably should be (many think he belongs). Guards were Ed Ulinski, Lin Houston, Weldon Humble, and Bob Gaudio, with defensive guard Bill Willis sometimes playing OG. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. In 1946 and 1947, Mo Scarry, who was NFL All-Pro with the Rams in 1945, started at center for the Cleveland Browns.

Ernie Blandin was a solid left tackle for the Browns in 1946 and 1947. In 1948, the league forced Cleveland to send Blandin to Baltimore in the AAFC's plan for the haves to help the have nots. Coach Paul Brown told the AAFC Commissioner to tell Blandin that sending him to Baltimore was the Commissioner's idea and not his. Cleveland also lost Y.A. Tittle the same way.

(2) Early 1950's: Tackles were Groza and Rymkus (Rymkus through 1951). John Sandusky was a solid right tackle from 1952 through 1954, but was replaced by HOFer Mike McCormack in 1955. I have a tape of the 1956 Green Bay Packers and I focused on watching John Sandusky sometimes at right tackle (Sandusky was traded to Green Bay in 1956) and Sandusky always seemed to make his block. I think that he was underrated due to playing with so many other great players.

Guards started out were Lin Houston, Abe Gibron and Weldon Humble and were joined later by Chuck Noll, Hal Bradley, Herschel Forester with Guadio (1951) and Skibinski (1952) playing guard for one season. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. This group with the Cleveland Browns won 6 Eastern Conference titles and 3 NFL Championships during those years (1950-55).

(3) Late 1950's and 1960 (1956-1960): Tackles Groza and McCormack with Dick Schafrath taking over at left tackle in 1959. Guards were Bradley and Forrester to start in 1956 with Jim Ray Smith taking over in 1957. Gene Hickerson joined the Browns in 1958 with Chuck Noll filling in sometimes before that and rookie Fred Robinson being one of the messenger guards in 1957. John Wooten joined the team in 1959. Art Hunter joined the Browns in 1956 and started at center for 3 years (1957-59). Hunter was traded to the Rams for John Morrow in 1960, and Morrow played well for Cleveland through part of 1966.

Those Cleveland teams in the late 1950's were tough, but didn't have the passing attack of the earlier Browns team that had guys like Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones. They had great running with Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and their great offensive line, and a tough defense, and were unlucky to not win some more championships during those years, especially in 1958.

(4) 1961-69: Mostly Schafrath and Monte Clark at the tackles with Hickerson and Wooten (through 1967) for most of the 1960's. Jim Ray Smith started at left guard through 1962 and then was traded for Monte Clark. McCormack started at right tackle through 1962. Wooten was traded to Washington in 1968 and John DeMarie played well at left guard for a few years after that. John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that. Fred Hoaglin was a rookie in 1966 and took over at center for the injured Morrow. Hoaglin remained the starting center for the next few years for Cleveland. Cleveland won 4 Eastern Conference titles during those years (1961-1969) and the NFL Championship in 1964.

I would say that it was a pretty long stretch of great offensive line play for the Cleveland Browns. That is my opinion anyway.

Harold Bradley's last year with Cleveland was 1956, and 1956 was also Abe Gibrons final season with the Browns, and Abe only played in 7 games that year before being traded to Philadelphia (traded or picked up on waivers). In 1957, Herschel Forester, in his last season, became the starter at left guard and Jim Ray Smith and Fred Robinson were messenger guards on the other side. Smith became the starter at left guard for the next few years and was one of the best ever. Chuck Noll was a messenger guard along with rookie Gene Hickerson at right guard in 1958.

(1) About having 3 studs on the OL, during the AAFC years, HOFer Lou Groza was starting left tackle beginning in 1948. Lou Rymkus started at right tackle all 4 years (1946-49), and was one of the best around. Rymkus was named to at least one All-Pro or All-League team all four years of the AAFC. HOFer Frank Gatski was starting center from 1948 on. Mike Scarry was All-Pro center in the NFL in 1945 and a starter for Cleveland in 1946 and 1947. Ed Ulinski was named 2nd team All-League guard in 1946 and 1948. Weldon Humble was named 2nd team All-League guard in 1948. Guard Lin Houston was named 2nd team All-Pro in the NFL in 1950 and 1951. All in all, I think that Cleveland's offensive line was at least equal to the three studs during the AAFC years.

Another thing, fullback Marion Motley was a terrific blocker and would often flatten defensive rushing linemen. Tough enough getting through Cleveland's offensive line only to run into Motley.

(2)1950-55: HOFers left tackle Groza and Center Gatski and HOFer Mike McCormack starting at right tackle in 1955. Rymkus at right tackle in 1950 and 1951 with Sandusky in between Rymkus and McCormack. Abe Gibron was named to some NFL All-Pro teams at guard and Houston is already mentioned.

(3) 1956-1960: Maybe best era of Cleveland's offensive linemen with Groza and McCormack at tackles and Schafrath starting in 1959 at LT. Also, guards Jim Ray Smith and Gene Hickerson starting in 1958. Gatski at center in 1956, Hunter (1957-59), and Morrow starting at center in 1960.

(4) Hickerson, Wooten, Schafrath, and Morrow, with Smith and McCormack through 1962. What more need be said.

The most suspect of the Cleveland Browns offensive lines through 1969 would probably be the 1946 team, because that was the Browns very first team. Let me see, You had Mike Scarry at center that year. I think that Scarry was one of the best centers in football at that time, being that he was named first team All-Pro by one org. and 2nd team by a couple of others in 1945 with the Rams and was named all-league in the AAFC in 1946 by one group and 2nd team all-league by a couple of others.

Lou Rymkus played right tackle for Cleveland in 1946, and was as good as anyone at that position. Lin Houston played right guard and was named on some All-Pro teams in 1950. Being a rookie, was he as good in 1946? I am sure that he was pretty good by the end of the season, or he would not have kept his job under Paul Brown, because Cleveland had some other guards.

Ed Ulinski started at left guard in 1946 and was named 2nd team all-league in 1946 and 1948 by some groups, so he must have been pretty good. Bill Willis would sometimes play right guard, at least until the Browns could bring Houston into the game. Alex Kapter, George Cheroke, and Bob Kolesar were backup guards in 1946 and I am sure that coach Brown saw to it that they got some good playing time.

Jim Daniell started at left guard in 1946 for Cleveland during the season, but was fired a few days before the championship game. Sounds like that could have been a problem, but the Browns had a solid backup in Ernie Blandin. Cleveland had guys that could back up their tackles with Chet Adams, Mike Scarry, and Lou Groza. If Scarry was ever needed at tackle, Cleveland had guys like Mel Maceau (who played 3 years for Cleveland, so he must have been at least an adequate backup at center) and Frank Gatski to back up Scarry at the center position.

Then there was Marion Motley. On pass plays, Motley would sometimes block the defensive end leaving the tackle to block the DT, which left the guard to help out wherever he could. Motley was a great blocker, so having Motley in the backfield was almost like having an extra offensive lineman.

There was also Paul Brown, who may have been the most organized coach in history. Cleveland had a lot of rookies on the team, but it did not seem to matter. They started out the season winning their opener 44 to 0, and Otto Graham didn't even start (Cleveland's first TD pass was thrown by Cliff Lewis).

Here is another example, Marion Motley and Bill Willis were both stars and are both in the HOF. In their game at Miami, there were death threats against Motley and Willis, so Paul Brown decided to give them the week off and leave them in Cleveland. Cleveland struggled without two of their superstars and managed a 38 to 0 victory. It was like sometimes the only thing that seemed to change was the numbers when starters didn't play (I have also heard that said about the 1970's Steelers and Lombardi's Packers).

So, I think that the 1946 Cleveland Browns qualify in this thread.

[Gary Najman]

I believe that the only OL after the merger with at least three players who went to multiple Pro Bowls, but none inducted to the HOF are the Air Coryell's San Diego Chargers, with Russ Washington, Ed White and Doug Wilkerson, and the pre-Larry Allen Dallas Cowboys, with Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Mark Stepnoski and Erik Williams. Any thoughts?

[Saban1]

I believe that the only OL after the merger with at least three players who went to multiple Pro Bowls, but none inducted to the HOF are the Air Coryell's San Diego Chargers, with Russ Washington, Ed White and Doug Wilkerson, and the pre-Larry Allen Dallas Cowboys, with Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Mark Stepnoski and Erik Williams. Any thoughts?

The AAFC did not have pro bowls but in 1950-1951 Cleveland had Lou Groza at LT an Frank Gatsky at center, who are both in the HOF. Lou Rymkus was at RT, and Rymkus was nominated for the HOF. In 1955 and 1956, Cleveland had 3 hall of famers on their OL, with Groza, Gatski, and McCormack at RT. I know that many think of Groza as a great place kicker, but he was also a great offensive tackle.

Three of those men, Groza, Gatski, and McCormack, went to pro bowls, and I am sure that Rymkus would have if the AAFC had pro bowls or there was a pro bowl after the 1950 season (I don't think that there was one).

[paulksandiego]

Saban, there was a Pro Bowl following the 1950 season, Rymkus didn't go. Groza and Weldon Humble did though.

[Saban1]

Saban, there was a Pro Bowl following the 1950 season, Rymkus didn't go. Groza and Weldon Humble did though.

You are right. I guess that I might have been thinking of the MVP award that was skipped in 1950, I think, or something like that. Otto Graham got the award 3 times in 6 years, even though I don't think that there was an award given in 1950 and 1952.

Actually, there was an all-star game after the 1949 season in the All-America Conference, sort of. It was the Cleveland Browns against an all-star team of players from the rest of the AAFC. Cleveland lost the game, but maybe the most famous thing about that game was a prank by all-star QB George Ratterman a few days before the game. Ratterman called the Browns up on the phone and a player answered. George Ratterman told the Browns player that the practice for that day was cancelled due to the rain. The player started to tell the other people on the team when assistant coach Blanton Collier overheard and smelled a rat(terman). Collier called Paul Brown and found out that it was not true.

Ironically, George Ratterman played for 5 seasons for Cleveland starting in 1952 and was even groomed to be the successor to Otto Graham at quarterback.

[rebelx24]

I believe that the only OL after the merger with at least three players who went to multiple Pro Bowls, but none inducted to the HOF are the Air Coryell's San Diego Chargers, with Russ Washington, Ed White and Doug Wilkerson, and the pre-Larry Allen Dallas Cowboys, with Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Mark Stepnoski and Erik Williams. Any thoughts?

Not sure about the veracity of this claim, but I will say that a case can be made for several of those guys being in Canton (at least in my opinion), the players being Washington, White, and Newton (whose drug issues have probably unfairly harmed his case). I'm not saying that they definitely belong, but their careers are worth considering.