Professional Football Researchers Association Forum
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I recently posted about the 1960s NFL team, and offered a few critiques and then posted one of my own. With advise of TJ and others, I went with
Dick LeBeau on the Second-team.
On Twitter caught a lot of grief for that since he lacks All-Pro recognition, and I get it. However, based on how defense worked, and what he was asked to do I went ahead and went with him
Fischer, Barnes, Cornell Green were all mentioned and if someone else picked them, they is no way they are wrong, their picks would be totally fine.
But the "honors" thing will always dog LeBeau when he's picked for things...
I think the general concern shouldn't really by Dick LeBeau's lack of honors, it should be how the honors in the 1960's were dispersed. Erich Barnes earned a pro bowl and 1st team (NEA) honors in 1964 playing for the last place Giants who gave up the most points and TD passes in the NFL. Barnes had 2 INTs on the year.
I think what hurts LeBeau is that he never had big INT seasons in the 60's...he consistently strung together 4-5 INT years. Barnes had a big year in 61, Whitsell had 10 INTs in 67, Fischer with 10 in 64. I wouldn't give you 'grief' over the LeBeau selection, but I probably would have picked someone else like Lane or Barnes or even Fischer.
Two interesting things about your chart...Cornell Green a strong late 60's resume. Kermit Alexander's FR total...do you think they include him recovering his own ST return fumbles? The number is awfully high.
Bryan wrote:I think the general concern shouldn't really by Dick LeBeau's lack of honors, it should be how the honors in the 1960's were dispersed. Erich Barnes earned a pro bowl and 1st team (NEA) honors in 1964 playing for the last place Giants who gave up the most points and TD passes in the NFL. Barnes had 2 INTs on the year.
I think what hurts LeBeau is that he never had big INT seasons in the 60's...he consistently strung together 4-5 INT years. Barnes had a big year in 61, Whitsell had 10 INTs in 67, Fischer with 10 in 64. I wouldn't give you 'grief' over the LeBeau selection, but I probably would have picked someone else like Lane or Barnes or even Fischer.
Two interesting things about your chart...Cornell Green a strong late 60's resume. Kermit Alexander's FR total...do you think they include him recovering his own ST return fumbles? The number is awfully high.
Yes, PFR adds in offensive FRs, which skews things...TJ is working on that and hoping PFR will use that data. I considered all the players on that list, some more than others. Lane would have bee a good one, I considered him, in fact, I am not sure Jimmy Johnson is the best 1st teamer...Green would be good, too.
It's just a decade that had one dominant guy (Adderley). Lane's era was 1950s and then maybe 1955-65. The best thing is the NFl Century 1960s team that was AFL and NFL combined and the CBs were Brown and Adderley...
FWIW, I’ve seen an interview with Ray Berry where he mentions the CBs who gave the most trouble: Abe Woodson, Jesse Whittenton, Irv Cross, Dick Lynch, and Dick LeBeau.
Looking at the list, I think you have to take into account conference. The Western Conference won 8 of 10 championship games. The two losses were a big upset and a game where the losing West team outgained the East team by nearly 200 yards. Frankly, on average, the West had the better talent.
The Sporting News had first teams for each conference. Here is who they picked for cornerbacks:
West
1960 - Barnes, Lane, Woodson (four defensive backs named, no further position designation)
1961 - Lane, Meador
1962 - Lane, Woodson
1963 - Lane, Adderley
1964 - Adderley, Ed Sharockman
1965 - LeBeau, Bennie McRae
1966 - Adderley, Jimmy Johnson
1967 - Adderley, Bobby Boyd
1968 - Lem Barney, Adderley, Boyd (3 players named)
East
1960 - Brookshier (other three DBs named are safeties)
1961 - Barnes, Don Bishop
1962 - Barnes, Jimmy Hill
1963 - Dick Lynch, Jimmy Hill
1964 - Fischer, Bernie Parrish
1965 - Fischer, Dick Lynch
1966 - Barnes, Cornell Green
1967 - Green, Dave Whitsell
1968 - Fischer, Barnes, Green, Ben Davis (4 players named)
For 1969, instead of East/West, a 1st and 2nd team were picked for all the NFL. Barney and Bobby Bryant were 1st team. Adderley and Johnson 2nd team. All from the West.
I have brought this up before, the dominance of the West. I think it's important during this era.
The Sporting News named All-Eastern and All-Western Conference Teams in 1969, not All-NFL Teams
Their East Cornerbacks were Cornell Green & Pat Fischer; the West Corners were Lem Barney & Jimmy Johnson. I think you are referring to the New York Daily News selections.
paulksandiego wrote:The Sporting News named All-Eastern and All-Western Conference Teams in 1969, not All-NFL Teams
Their East Cornerbacks were Cornell Green & Pat Fischer; the West Corners were Lem Barney & Jimmy Johnson. I think you are referring to the New York Daily News selections.
Thanks. I went off Pro Football Reference, which is apparently wrong for 1969. Couldn't find the teams in TSN either.
As far as West vs. East in the 1960s, West also won 7 out of 10 Pro Bowls, 8 out of 10 Playoff Bowls, and the season series every year from 1961 to 1969.
