Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good
rewing84
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by rewing84 »

Bryan wrote:
Andy Piascik wrote:Branch was a poor choice. There are 15 seniors more deserving, maybe more. With Branch this year and Pearson last year, it's clear they haven't closed the door on the ten Centennial finalists who didn't make it in January 2020. Too bad they're picking the wrong ones from among those ten, plus it seems like they've drawn a line at 1970.
I'll disagree on stabler and branch and pearson bryan
Branch's selection also further exacerbates something John Turney has been talking about: the big disparity between WRs, QBs and RBs in the HOF compared to OL, DL, LBs and DBs. Even just looking at OL, there are a bunch more deserving than Branch but they continue to get bypassed. Troubling, too, that they've picked yet another guy who played most of his career in the 1970s.
I agree with all of this. I get that the word "Fame" is in Hall of Fame, but it seems like some of these recent Senior selections have just been lazy. Stabler, Branch, Pearson...just enshrine everyone who played on Monday Night Football. Then put in Don Meredith as a Contributor.
JohnTurney
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by JohnTurney »

IrishJimmy wrote:I disagree on Stabler - he was a great choice. I mean I guess we could make these arguments on many choices. I mean Griese hardly threw the ball in some of the Dolphins biggest wins. Do we take him out? Was Dan Fouts just a numbers guy? Kelly lost 4 Super Bowls. I think they were all deserving in their own way. Stabler was a clutch player and also had a winning record against his 70s QB peers that are in the Hall. Plus he won a title.
Stabler is, to me, the most borderline of borderline cases. His SUper Bowl win---yeah, he beat the Steelers when they were without their two 1,000 yard RBs.
He had years where he throw 24, 30, 28 INTs in an era where that many is too many...

He did have a run of 1973-80 as a winner---but 1975, 78, 80 his stats were iffy (at BEST)

and he had a lot of cruddy years.

If be's "above the HOF line" he above it by the scruff of his neck, IMO
Brian wolf
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Brian wolf »

Yes, Snakes' 78 and 80 seasons were bad statistically but his record was still 20-12, though the Raiders, especially Madden, Tatum, Stabler and Mickey Marvin had a disastrous 1978 year ... his only losing season was 1981, with Houston and way past his prime but he was also .500 during the terrible John Mecom Jr. ownership era in Nawlins ...
Brian wolf
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Brian wolf »

Andy ... If the final senior vote would have been yours, who would you have put in the HOF ?
Andy Piascik
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Andy Piascik »

Al Wistert.
Brian wolf
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Brian wolf »

Thanks ... was hoping Wistert for 2023-24 but now its doubtful ...
Andy Piascik
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Andy Piascik »

I've gotta disagree with you, Brian, and agree with Bryan and John about Stabler. I think he was yet another poor HOF selection. Even while acknowledging that QB is the most important position, you're giving way too much credit for the success Stabler's teams had to him. It's football, not tennis or golf. And that era was very different than the pass-happy game we have today.

The Raiders were loaded pretty much throughout the 1970s. They had one of the greatest OLs ever for most of the decade and a secondary that nobody wanted to play against. With Branch now very likely going into the HOF in February, they had two HOF WRs and a HOF TE for much of the decade. And in the sole season when they went all the way, they not only played the Steelers without Harris and Bleier, they basically won the week before only because of one of the worst blown calls in postseason history.

So it's hard to see how Stabler "led" the Raiders to anything or "put them over the top" in any sense. He was the QB on one of the most underachieving teams in history and that does not reflect well on him.

Then to top it off, a Houston team that lost two straight AFC Championship Games to one of the greatest teams ever was a one-and-done wildcard with him in 1980, then fell off a cliff, while the team that got rid of him won the Super Bowl, posted the best record in football in 1982 and won another Super Bowl in 1983.
Last edited by Andy Piascik on Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Brian wolf
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Brian wolf »

Your argument is good Andy, I agree on most of the points but getting to five straight AFC Championship games with a SB win is not exactly the worst at underachieving. Especially when the teams they lost to, were the eventual champions except for Denver. Yes, the election of 12 HOF players/coaches/owner from that team, with another, Otto, retiring before 1976, makes them seem more underachieving but the Steelers deliberately froze the outside of their field/hash marks to take away Branch/Biletnikoff in the 1975/76 AFC Championship and the crazy Rob Lytle non-fumble in the 77/78 game put the Raiders in a hole they couldn't get out of ... Could/would the Raiders have won those games? They didn't but at the same time, the Raiders defense wasn't nearly as good in 1979, Snakes' last year, as it was in the championship seasons of 80 and 83 when Charlie Sumner had gotten the players to buy into his system. Could Stabler have won with those defenses, we just don't know ...
Last edited by Brian wolf on Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Brian wolf
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Brian wolf »

Remember too that Stabler was the ONLY QB to beat the Steelers twice in the postseason during the 1970s and it would have been a third time if the officials had called the clipping penalty against TE John McMakins on Phil Villapiano during the Immaculate Reception TD by Franco Harris.
Andy Piascik
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Re: Branch and Vermeil are the picks

Post by Andy Piascik »

You're doing it again. Quarterbacks don't win football games. Football teams win football games.
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