Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good
User avatar
Rupert Patrick
Posts: 1746
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:53 pm
Location: Upstate SC

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Rupert Patrick »

JameisLoseston wrote:Rupert: I will grant you Sayers, I briefly forgot to consider his return prowess. I think Davis is a good comparison, however, and while Davis did have better output than Sims, I do like Davis as a HOFer; the main argument against, imo, is the amount of Olandis Garys and Mike Andersons thereafter who waltzed to big seasons behind
Shanahan and that line. TD was better than all of them, but considering that, Davis' HOF case makes Sims' HOVG case extremely hard to dismiss.

The critical point you forgot to highlight was Sims' receiving work, which is what I think seals his HOVG case. His receiving in both of his first two healthy seasons was enough to almost get him to 2000 and 20 from scrimmage, which is far more impressive than his rushing stats taken alone, which would not merit HOVG induction. William Andrews, who you mention, also has this going for him, but he was so TD-starved that it makes him a bit more difficult imo, even though I'd also definitely support and vote for him. Davis was a competent receiver, but in terms of total scrimmage output, Sims' best two seasons (his first two) were about equal to Davis' second and third best seasons (the two before his 2000/20). Sims was also still an elite per game producer every year of his career, even after he started getting injured. Seems undisputed HOVG to me.
I don't really see an argument against Terrell Davis at all; the system in Denver produced a number of 1,000-rushers after him, but he put the Broncos over the top in 1997 and 1998. Elway could not have done it with running backs of the calibre of Sammy Winder and Gerald Wilhite.

Sims was a great receiver for a RB, and probably could have been converted into a WR and been a great receiver in the NFL. I was not knocking Sims as a HOVG candidate, I would probably vote for William Andrews over him, but that's just me.
"Every time you lose, you die a little bit. You die inside. Not all your organs, maybe just your liver." - George Allen
JameisLoseston
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:39 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by JameisLoseston »

I've been mean to QBs lately, so how about a candidate I think is a perfect fit for HOVG: Milt Plum? The man was lights out for a good 3 years with Cleveland. He feels like someone who should be in if, say, Tobin Rote is, and I don't mean that as a knock on Rote. Other than the obvious, guys who should be in the HOF, I feel like the HOVG was fundamentally built for two primary kinds of players: guys who were good to, well, very good for a long stretch, and guys who burned bright and then burned out, e.g. Plum, Sims, Homer Jones. As you can see, it hasn't paid enough attention to the latter type.
User avatar
Bryan
Posts: 2509
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:37 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Bryan »

JameisLoseston wrote: Sims' best two seasons (his first two) were about equal to Davis' second and third best seasons (the two before his 2000/20). Sims was also still an elite per game producer every year of his career, even after he started getting injured. Seems undisputed HOVG to me.
I think Sims is the type of player that should represent the HOVG. Undisputed greatness, passes the eye test, just short of the HOF on tangible accomplishment. I had posted this awhile back about Sims regarding his last two years (83-84) in the NFL:

I was reading some old 1980's Detroit Lions literature, and came across a 1983 review that said Billy Sims played the first 8 games of 1983 with injury but was much better in the 2nd half of the season when he was healthy. I looked up his gamelogs and that indeed was true. Sims also got off to a very good start in 1984 before suffering a career ending injury in Week 8, dueling with Eric Dickerson for the rushing lead.

I thought it would be interesting to combine his last 8 games of 1983 and his 8 games of 1984 to form a full 16-game season for Sims. Here is what he did:

303 carries, 1537 yards, 5.1 YPC, 10 TDs...60 receptions for 559 yards, 9.3 average. Pretty impressive.
sheajets
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by sheajets »

Henry Ellard is among the best not in the HOVG

Seven thousand yard receiving seasons. Actually led the league in yards per catch at the age of 35.

Over 800 career receptions. 13,777 yards.

ten seasons of 50 or more receptions. Was consistently good to very good well into his 30's. Despite being thrown to by Gus Frerotte and Heath Shuler

3x Pro Bowler. 2x All Pro. Overshadowed of course by Mr. Rice but that's not really his fault. Art Monk as well, who won Super Bowls and is in the HOF. I never really saw Monk as that much better a player than Ellard.
JameisLoseston
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:39 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by JameisLoseston »

sheajets wrote:Henry Ellard is among the best not in the HOVG

Seven thousand yard receiving seasons. Actually led the league in yards per catch at the age of 35.

Over 800 career receptions. 13,777 yards.

ten seasons of 50 or more receptions. Was consistently good to very good well into his 30's. Despite being thrown to by Gus Frerotte and Heath Shuler

3x Pro Bowler. 2x All Pro. Overshadowed of course by Mr. Rice but that's not really his fault. Art Monk as well, who won Super Bowls and is in the HOF. I never really saw Monk as that much better a player than Ellard.
Ellard is not yet eligible, he retired in 1998. He is a lock when he comes up. Otherwise would've mentioned him.
Brian wolf
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Brian wolf »

For me, its Cecil Isbell or Floyd Little ...

I would take a winner like Kemp over Isbell, who only had three good seasons. Hutson would make any thrower look good. Little is good but better than other backs not in the HOVG ? I dont think so, but its all subjective.
Brian wolf
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Brian wolf »

The best one not in is Phil Simms.
Brian wolf
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Brian wolf »

I was wrong. I am sure there is a player out there who hasnt made the HOVG, thats better than Simms and I have to find him but Simms was who I was thinking of, in terms of a QB.
I might have sounded a little harsh on Little but just saw that OJ Anderson made this years, list ...
JuggernautJ
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:14 pm
Location: NinerLand, Ca.

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by JuggernautJ »

Brian wolf wrote:For me, its Cecil Isbell or Floyd Little ...

I would take a winner like Kemp over Isbell, who only had three good seasons. Hutson would make any thrower look good. Little is good but better than other backs not in the HOVG ? I dont think so, but its all subjective.
Not to be argumentative but many here value not just physical abilities but also contributions the the game.
One question frequently asked is "Can you tell the history of football without mentioning him?" (Or something to that effect).
It's kind of why someone like Namath is in the HoF... It's not just his talent or his accomplishments... did he add to the game?

Of course, like "the eye test" this can be a matter of opinion...
Brian wolf
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Post by Brian wolf »

I understand what Isbell could bring to the table as a thrower and the possibilities of a passing offense. Herber could throw as well but not as good as Cecil. I just believe he didnt play long enough. If he is based on three great seasons, why not other players like Latone, Sims, Andrews, Warren Wells, Mike Reid and George Sauer Jr ?
Early retirement has affected a lot of good to great players and though Isbell cant be blamed for wrongly being elected all-decade, you just wonder what his relationship with Curley Lambeau was like to retire so soon ?
Post Reply