Dick Vermeil HOVG?

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ChrisBabcock
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Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by ChrisBabcock »

My mention of the 1980 NFCCG in another thread got me to thinking about Dick Vermeil. Would we consider him a HOVG coach? I am on the fence and am willing to be swayed either way. Of his 3 coaching stops his best job would have been turning the Eagles around and guiding them to the playoffs 4 straight years. He was a combined 9-23 his first 2 years in St. Louis before the Super Bowl season of 1999... which I think would have happened regardless of him being coach or not. Warner got his opportunity to shine because of Trent Green’s preseason injury and IMO more importantly was the trade for Faulk that put them over the top. The Chiefs stint was Rams part II. Priest Holmes blossomed when he and Vermeil both arrived in 2001... but that may be attributed to him finally being used to his fullest potential. His YPC is about the same between his Baltimore years and KC years. The Vermiel Chiefs teams were not that great on defense either... at least yardage-wise.

thoughts?
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Rupert Patrick
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Rupert Patrick »

I think his leaving the Rams after winning Super Bowl XXXIV probably cost the Rams at least one Lombardi Trophy and maybe a couple more NFC titles. The Rams quickly jelled into a powerhouse and Vermeil had a lot to do with it, and after he left, it wasn't quite the same. They did rebound in 2001, but with talent they had in place (offensively and defensively), they should have been set for a five-to-eight year window of dominance like the Cowboys of the 90s the 49ers of the 80's, with a string of division titles at least until they had to contend with Seattle in 2005, with three or four Super Bowl appearances. Martz was an offensive whiz but I felt he was best suited as an OC.
When he left the Rams, I was under the impression that Vermeil was retiring again, but he pops up the season after next in Kansas City. He turned that team into an offensive powerhouse, but he couldn't get them over the hump.
I think he had taken the Eagles as far as he could, and turned the team around after a generation of malaise. Since his leaving, the Eagles have been pretty successful due primarily to Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Andy Reid.
Like Bill Parcells, Dick Vermeil left every team he coached much better off when he left as opposed to how the team was when he first showed up. Parcells was a little more successful, and that is why he is in the Hall of Fame. I think if Vermeil had gotten the Chiefs to a Super Bowl, he would have easily been HOVG and borderline HOF, but ultimately I have to dock him some points because he walked away from a Super Bowl winning team he built and I think the team failed to be what it could have been without him. He is close to HOVG, but I would advocate against it.
"Every time you lose, you die a little bit. You die inside. Not all your organs, maybe just your liver." - George Allen
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Bryan
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Bryan »

I loved Dick Vermeil so I am biased, but I would vote for Vermeil before I would vote for Dan Reeves. Vermeil could always put together an offense regardless of personnel. Reeves kind of lucked out in that he took over a team that had some good players and then John Elway fell into his lap...he basically traded Chris Hinton for 3 Super Bowl appearances. Vermeil got big years out of Ron Jaworski, Kurt Warner & Trent Green.
Eagles One
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Eagles One »

I am also bias towards Vermeil, however consider this. His first year as Eagles' coach, they previously traded away their top three draft choices over the next two years and the top two picks the year after that. He was able to assemble a team of which included Wilbert Montgomery (drafted in the 6th round), Carl Hairston (drafted in the 7th round) and the non drafted player Herm "You play to win the game" Edwards. In four years they won the NFC Title. Vermeil was just a great evaluator of talent. He also gave Warner the chance to start after Trent Green was injured.
Jeremy Crowhurst
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Jeremy Crowhurst »

The 1998 Rams remind me of the 1988 Cowboys, except maybe even less talent. He got all those pieces in place without having to give up a Herschel Walker.

The Eagles went how long with only one winning season, fourteen years, then they hire him and after two years they make the playoffs four years in a row? The Rams had seven straight losing seasons, then they stick him with Lawrence Phillips and Tony Banks, and in two years he wins a Super Bowl. Kansas City wasn't a turnaround, but he got the players he needed to keep them a contender. He's like an NFL Jenga master the way he brought guys in and fit them perfectly into his system. Nobody saw Priest Holmes as a three-time All Pro back. Marshall Faulk, what did he give up, a second? Trent Green couldn't even make the BC Lions, then he has one good season with Washington, and Vermeil seems like the only guy who knew what he was looking at. And Warner... go back and read Pro Football Weekly's 1999 Kickoff Issue. Whoever wrote the profile on the Rams was drinking Vermeil's Kool-Aid, they described Green and Warner as one of the best quarterback duos in the league. I mean, they were, but who the hell knew THAT at the time? Vermeil did.

Seems like an obvious HOVG to me.
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74_75_78_79_
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by 74_75_78_79_ »

In addition to winning it in '99 as he did, had he won SBXV with Philly it's pretty hard to not see him in Canton. I'm venturing into 'what-if' territory here but one can imagine what happens with Greatest Show's legacy as well as with his had he stayed in '00 and '01.
JohnH19
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by JohnH19 »

Vermeil and Dan Reeves would both be worthy members of the HoVG.
Saban1
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Saban1 »

Vermeil in the HOVG would be fine by me, and probably Reeves too. Another I like is Buck Shaw.
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74_75_78_79_
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by 74_75_78_79_ »

Saban wrote:Vermeil in the HOVG would be fine by me, and probably Reeves too. Another I like is Buck Shaw.
Some parallels between Vermeil and Shaw.

Vermeil in 1980 coached the Eagles to the big game in a losing effort then later on, in '99, coach his next team (Rams) to a title in his third season with them, and then retire (before un-retiring w KC).

Shaw in '49 coached a team to a title game in a losing effort then later would coach the Eagles, in his third season with them, to a title in 1960 and then retire (for good).

Both coached a PAC10 California team.

When Shaw won with Eagles, he was the oldest coach to win an NFL title...that would be until Vermeil would win with the Rams.
Saban1
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Re: Dick Vermeil HOVG?

Post by Saban1 »

74_75_78_79_ wrote:
Saban wrote:Vermeil in the HOVG would be fine by me, and probably Reeves too. Another I like is Buck Shaw.
Some parallels between Vermeil and Shaw.

Vermeil in 1980 coached the Eagles to the big game in a losing effort then later on, in '99, coach his next team (Rams) to a title in his third season with them, and then retire (before un-retiring w KC).

Shaw in '49 coached a team to a title game in a losing effort then later would coach the Eagles, in his third season with them, to a title in 1960 and then retire (for good).

Both coached a PAC10 California team.

When Shaw won with Eagles, he was the oldest coach to win an NFL title...that would be until Vermeil would win with the Rams.

All true, and none of those parallels even occurred to me.
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