Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Zero26 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:34 am

TanksAndSpartans wrote:
Zero26 wrote:Smith leads pre Hutson WR's(who played more than 2 seasons) in receiving yards per game. Tinsley overshadowed him for sure with his 2 incredible seasons that got him on the all decade team. While I would have otherwise given that spot to Joe Carter it might have went to Bill Smith(you put 2 on your all decade team curious who your 2 would be if you put 4?). Given that Benton who IMO is a no brainer HOF(is in HOVG) wasn't inducted I think whoever got that spot still wouldn't be in HOF though as they'd be a borderline case. Tinsley didn't get in because his career was too short. This was a position and era that best demonstrates the ambuigity of all pro as there were so many wide receivers to choose between. Once Hutson came on the scene that meant there was only one first team all pro spot left each year(which Tinsley promptly took for 2 seasons). To put this in perspective Wayne Milner made the HOF while never making a 1st or 2nd all pro team. He was an honorable mention most years as was his teammate Charley Malone who also never made it.


@Zero26, what do you think? My reasoning was I didn't like Tinsley as all-decade for just two seasons, so my conclusion was not to have another end. Would you have added another end to the All-30s team? Smith? Carter? Malone? Were any of them known for blocking ro defense? Any testimonials? Honestly, I was close to including Smith, but felt a little uncomfortable going with a player I had never heard of on the basis of his PFR card. I'm persuadable in this case, but if no one really stood out, I'm ok to leave it too. Might this be the least competitive position for any all-decade team? No one seems to jump out an an obvious 3rd or 4th end.


TanksAndSpartans wrote:
Zero26 wrote:Smith leads pre Hutson WR's(who played more than 2 seasons) in receiving yards per game. Tinsley overshadowed him for sure with his 2 incredible seasons that got him on the all decade team. While I would have otherwise given that spot to Joe Carter it might have went to Bill Smith(you put 2 on your all decade team curious who your 2 would be if you put 4?). Given that Benton who IMO is a no brainer HOF(is in HOVG) wasn't inducted I think whoever got that spot still wouldn't be in HOF though as they'd be a borderline case. Tinsley didn't get in because his career was too short. This was a position and era that best demonstrates the ambuigity of all pro as there were so many wide receivers to choose between. Once Hutson came on the scene that meant there was only one first team all pro spot left each year(which Tinsley promptly took for 2 seasons). To put this in perspective Wayne Milner made the HOF while never making a 1st or 2nd all pro team. He was an honorable mention most years as was his teammate Charley Malone who also never made it.


@Zero26, what do you think? My reasoning was I didn't like Tinsley as all-decade for just two seasons, so my conclusion was not to have another end. Would you have added another end to the All-30s team? Smith? Carter? Malone? Were any of them known for blocking ro defense? Any testimonials? Honestly, I was close to including Smith, but felt a little uncomfortable going with a player I had never heard of on the basis of his PFR card. I'm persuadable in this case, but if no one really stood out, I'm ok to leave it too. Might this be the least competitive position for any all-decade team? No one seems to jump out an an obvious 3rd or 4th end.


I also agree Tinsley's career is just too short. I get their logic as during his only 2 full seasons he was clearly the 2nd best WR of the decade but 29 games is far below any reasonable cutoff even for that era(less than half of Battles 60 games). Clearly the all decade voters are more lax with longevity requirements than HOF voters and there's a whole class of early era all decade players who didn't play long enough to make the Hall but even in this class Tinsley stands out(Whizzer White has 33 games).

I'd put Joe Carter ahead of Smith and maybe Hewitt he's got the most complete resume stat wise in terms of both yardage and TDs. Of the receivers drafted in the 1930s his numbers are the best besides Hutson, Benton and Tinsley and that trio changed what good WR stats looked like. The other receivers who scored 20(or even 15) touchdowns including Hewitt had poor yardage stats(for elite receivers) and likewise the other receivers who had good yardage typically didn't score that often with Smith being in this crowd. If there is a fifth HOF WR from this era(assuming Benton gets in eventually)I think it should be Carter. In terms of career stats Carter retired third in receiving yards behind Hutson and Benton 4th in catches behind Hutson, Benton and Malone and 4th in receiving touchdowns among receivers(McNally had more but he was a back).

I would take out Milner and put in Smith for the fourth spot but you could make an argument for keeping him cause A he made the HOF and B reviewing the PFRA All pro file. Which brings us to how these receivers were viewed at the time. Given there are no pro bowls in this era I use all pro honorable mentions as my alternative preferred accolade.

Here's a list of how many Honorable Mentions(or better) each receiver got. These start in 1932 and are the offical teams. These are receivers drafted in the 1930s some of these include honors in the 1940s but it gives you an idea of how many seasons they were considered elite WR's.

11)Hutson
7)Hewitt
7)Carter
6)Milner
6)Poole
5)Benton
5)Bill Smith
4)Perry Scwartz
4)Charley Malone
4)Bill Karr
4)Milt Gantenbium
4)Harry Ebding
4)George Wilson

While Milner never made an all pro team it does appear he was one of the most consistant elite receivers in the NFL and that he wasn't elected to the all decade team and HOF purely on his postseason play. I'd say it's close between Smith and Milner for the 4th spot.

In terms of other options Scwartz like Benton had too much of his career in the 40s when his stats would not be quite as impressive as in the 30s(his stats also dove when he lost his HOF QB). Malone career statwise besides Carter looks the nicest and his stats are slightly better than his HOF teammate Milner however he never made an all pro team from any selector. This stands out in a bad way in this group because there were a lot of unoffical all pro teams(for example Milner made 2 unoffical teams). In any case I'd support all of these players except Poole, Gantenbium and Wilson in the HOVG.
Zero26
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:35 am
Location: NYC

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:33 pm

With all these excellent recent comments, just wanted to give my thoughts on players I believe deserve to be in the HOVG ... Theyre so close that there is no particular order and most if not all, have HOF cases. Some were extremely underrated and didnt get the accolades they deserved. Hopefully, these players will be selected sooner rather than later ...

My Top 20 Most Deserving Of Election To The HOVG

George Andrie
Mike Kenn
Phil Simms
Tony Latone
James Brooks
Larry Brooks
Russ Washington
Leon Gray
Herschel Walker
Mark Bavaro
Carroll Dale
Gary Clark
Don Doll
Wilbur Marshall
John David Crow
Cedrick Hardman
Dennis Smith
Wes Chandler
Abe Woodson
HughTaylor/Henry Thomas
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:36 pm

Thomas may not be eligible yet. He played longer than I thought but 93 sacks and over 1000 total tackles ... pretty impressive without more accolades.
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:08 am

@Brian Wolf, that looks like a good list. My personal preference is that the HOVG prioritize early players though, which hasn't happened, because, well, certainly no one else will - there's discussion of modern players on pretty much every football board.

@Zero26 - thanks for the reply - another good read. You make a good case for Carter and Smith. I'll add them as '30s second teamers. As far as Hewitt, I think his case for first team is pretty solid on the basis of being very well known for defense - he's actually the player Bob Carroll joked about having more unofficial sacks than Deacon Jones. I think I read his nickname was "offsides kid" or something like that, but early off the ball or not, I think he was pretty impactful.

What do you think about '30s 2nd team Center and Guard? The HOF has:

Screen Shot 2021-10-29 at 9.02.22 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-10-29 at 9.02.22 AM.png (18.86 KiB) Viewed 996 times


I've always felt Goldenberg was a stretch and Letlow a really uninformed choice. I have Michaleske, Emerson, and Fortmann, but no 4th which would be needed for a full 2nd team. Who would your 4th be?

At Center, I don't think anyone questions Hein, but I always felt Svendsen to be a rather odd choice. I left out a 2nd team center. Who would yours be? I've considered this guy;

https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/nate-barragar-held-down-packers-line-in-30s-b99379528z1-281545551.html/

Thanks!
User avatar
TanksAndSpartans
 
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:05 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:42 am

Thanks T&S ...

I will admit, my knowledge of earlier players isnt as good as yours or other writers, so some deserving players like Malone, Christensen and others are outside my top 20 but even the rest of my top forty are so close its purely subjective. Like Zero26 has pointed out, alot of outstanding players from different eras didnt quite play long enough, so 60-70 games seems to be a good starting point but will have to research more on who didnt quite make the cut.
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:15 pm

Share the knowledge TanksAndSpartans ...

Who are your 10 most deserving super-seniors (pre-60s, pre-50s) that deserve to make HOVG ?
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:14 pm

Thanks for asking Brian. My usual 5, 2 of whom seem to be perennial runners-up, plus another 5 to make it to 10:

Sonnenberg
McMillen
Latone
Christensen
Gutowsky
...
Bob Nash
Norb Sacksteder
Frank Nesser
Cub Buck
Homer Davidson
User avatar
TanksAndSpartans
 
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:05 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:22 pm

Thanks ...

I remember your comments on some of these players from Talkoffamenetwork ... I miss commenting on that site but dont want to deal with FaceDeathStar ...
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:44 pm

Brian wolf wrote:Thanks ...

I remember your comments on some of these players from Talkoffamenetwork ... I miss commenting on that site but dont want to deal with FaceDeathStar ...


I was excited when they made a case for Sacksteder, but I don't go there often because I kind of feel like making a case for everyone is about the equivalent of making a case for no one. Is DeathStar a commenter?
User avatar
TanksAndSpartans
 
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:05 am

Re: Worst player in HOVG? Best player not in?

Postby Brian wolf » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:49 pm

I could be wrong but I think talkoffamenetwork only takes comments through Facebook now ... The Death Star of the internet except for Google itself ... haha
Brian wolf
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:43 am

PreviousNext

Return to HOF and HOVG Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests