NFL might experiment with making extra-point attempts longer

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oldecapecod11
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NFL might experiment with making extra-point attempts longer

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NFL might experiment with making extra-point attempts longer
Started by Mark L. Ford, Mar 04 2014 02:09 PM

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#1 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:09 PM
An attempt from the 25 is not likely to happen, but this might be a good compromise between the folks who would like to keep the extra point kick and the ones who are tired of watching something that works 99% of the time...
http://www.nfl.com/n...attempts-longer

#2 74_75_78_79_
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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:27 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 04 Mar 2014 - 2:09 PM, said:
An attempt from the 25 is not likely to happen,
http://www.nfl.com/n...attempts-longer

Yeah, I guess it's the 'lesser of the evils'. I'd rather it stay the way it is, I so agree with the poster from way back who stated something along the lines of not everything in football needing to be UN-automatic, but 25 yards....that's fine I guess. I guess.

#3 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:54 PM
I agree-- why from the 25 yard line? OK, the 2-yard line and a 19 yard kick are too easy for today's kickers, but seems like moving it to the 10 or the 15 would serve the same purpose.

#4 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:23 AM
Why not at the point of entry of the touchdown - or at least to the hash on that side?

This would create a slightly more difficult kick and the slightly wider side might encourage more 2-point attempts?

Hmmm... somewhere I read of a press or team or player that wanted the extra distance involved by kicking a FG from near the sideline added to the yardage from scrimmage?
I think he or they felt it might have affected a record in his favor?

#5 evan
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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:42 AM
They could just repeal the Matt Blair rule, let defensive players actually jump in the air, and bring back the blocked kick.

The near-extinction of the blocked kick has been a sad development of the modern game, coming from a Vikings fan who grew up actually expecting his team to block every kick (FG, PAT, punt). It was a spectacularly thrilling play, but now is something that never crosses my mind when watching a game.

Let the players block kicks again and the PAT and FGs will be more interesting.

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#6 Kelly1105
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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:09 AM
Here is a slightly different thought. To me simply speaking as a fan what is annoying about the extra point is a touchdown is scored usually networks go to commercial, the extra point is kicked they go to commercial, the kickoff occurs they go to commercial.

Why not make it that teams have 15 seconds to get off the extra point after a TD. Which would curtail excessive TD celebrations, probably force the first team offense and defense to stay on the field. Which would give the kicking team more of an option as to faking it. The long snapper position could become extinct and real centers would have to do the snapping ( what a shocking thought). The obvious result of this is an extra position would open up on the active roster.

This would be more entertaining that watching a player kiss his body parts in the end zone and we may actually be spared one less pick up truck commercial........which is the real reason they would not do this.

#7 3243
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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:19 AM
Egad. I'm getting closer to finally never watching another NFL game or supporting this once-great league again.

Has the NFL heard the maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?"

#8 3243
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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:20 AM
evan, on 05 Mar 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:
They could just repeal the Matt Blair rule, let defensive players actually jump in the air, and bring back the blocked kick.

The near-extinction of the blocked kick has been a sad development of the modern game, coming from a Vikings fan who grew up actually expecting his team to block every kick (FG, PAT, punt). It was a spectacularly thrilling play, but now is something that never crosses my mind when watching a game.

Let the players block kicks again and the PAT and FGs will be more interesting.

Good idea.

#9 luckyshow
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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:02 PM
Elsewhere I gave all my ideas, all ignored here. Yes, have the kick from opposite the TD point of entry. But the kick should be closer not further away which is still mostly automatic. Put the scrimmage line for it in the end zone. Such close kicks, especially if from odd angles, would actually be harder. Although this would cut out any fake from kik formation or allow aa play on a botched snap...

And make the kick have to be attempted by a player already in the game when the TD was made. Just this one return to limited substitution (probably anathema to the players union) would work to make it more difficult.

#10 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:06 PM
luckyshow, on 07 Mar 2014 - 1:02 PM, said:
Elsewhere I gave all my ideas, all ignored here.

If they weren't posted in this thread, they haven't been "ignored"..... was anyone supposed to do a search of some sort?

#11 giasyc94
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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:16 PM
My two cents - have adjustable uprights. For FGs, keep it the same as is now. For extra points, move the two vertical poles in toward each other with the distance between them to something similiar to what it is in Arena Football.
Roger

#12 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:19 PM
That's an interesting idea-- if I'm not mistaken, the crossbar is higher in Arena League. The others were interesting too-- the hurried kick (involving immediate placement of the ball after a TD) as suggested by Kelly1105; oldecapecod's and lucky's angled kick; evan's idea for unlimited kick blocking. Luck's idea for limiting the kick to someone already on the field would be hard to find a loophole for-- maybe you'd have your kicking specialist deep in the backfield if you're in the red zone, but you're out of luck for nearly every TD made by the defense or special teams on a return -- pick six, kickoff return, punt return, etc. or on a long run from scrimmage or a long TD pass-- the most exciting plays would be more likely to end as 6 points instead of 7.

Still, I think that the goal should be to make the point after only a little bit more difficult-- no less than a 90% success rate. Most people don't want 12-6 scores (Canada gave that up back in the 1950s), or a touchdown play that isn't worth more than a couple of field goals.

#13 Reaser
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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:08 PM
74_75_78_79_, on 04 Mar 2014 - 5:27 PM, said:
I'd rather it stay the way it is, I so agree with the poster from way back who stated something along the lines of not everything in football needing to be UN-automatic, but 25 yards....that's fine I guess. I guess.
I believe this is the thread you were referencing; http://www.pfraforum...?showtopic=2524
I'll just quote myself since I have the same thoughts;

"I have no problem with the extra point, the only problem with it is the sequence of extra point, commercial, kickoff, commercial...at least eliminate the commercial between the extra point and kickoff and I think conscientiously people would have less of a problem with the point after, despite it being automatic majority of the time.

I personally enjoy the rarity of the missed and/or blocked extra point, or the bad snap, etc...Same way I enjoy a completed hail mary or successful onside kick, things like that. Not every aspect and every play of every game needs to be artificially "entertaining" or "exciting"... "

Link also includes Luckyshow's ideas.

One of which I agree with, if there has to be a change, then why not just flip it from how it was prior to 1912 (I believe, haven't looked at the old rulebooks in quite a while) ... before then the PAT had to be from a place-kick. So now that the place-kick is obviously the less difficult of the two, why not change the rule to where only a drop-kick can be used for 1 point. Also would get fairly interesting strategies and formations out of that, line up for the drop kick but be in a decent formation to get the snap and throw it for the 2-point, or even have 'option' plays designed (drop kick, throw or run) ...

Of course, as I've said, i'de just rather keep it the same. Maybe they can eliminate the "K" ball, add a challenge to the snapper and holder having to snap and hold an out of the box slick ball? Or you know, could always significantly lower the roster limit so that there aren't specialists, forcing football players be . . . football players (run, pass, catch, kick, punt, block, tackle.)

#14 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 09:54 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 05 Mar 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:
Hmmm... somewhere I read of a press or team or player that wanted the extra distance involved by kicking a FG from near the sideline added to the yardage from scrimmage?
I think he or they felt it might have affected a record in his favor?
If anyone might have said that, it would have been Tom Dempsey, whose 63 yard kick in 1970 was done at a time when the hashmarks were 10 feet, 9 inches to the side of each goalpost, instead of directly in front of them. However, I did the math, and I conclude that the difference from the three other 63 yard kicks (taking into account the angle) would have only worked out to only 3.6 inches.
One point in Tom's favor, however, is that he made his kick at sea level in New Orleans, while the four since then (63 yards by Jason Elam, Sebastian Janikowski, and David Akers, and the 64 yarder by Matt Prater) all took place in the "Mile High City".
Later edit-- (As pointed out by Teo below, Akers' kick was in Green Bay -- about 650 feet above sea level, which isn't enough to get a Sherpa guide to help. Oops.)

#15 Teo
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 11:30 AM
Mark L. Ford, on 08 Mar 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:
If anyone might have said that, it would have been Tom Dempsey, whose 63 yard kick in 1970 was done at a time when the hashmarks were 10 feet, 9 inches to the side of each goalpost, instead of directly in front of them. However, I did the math, and I conclude that the difference from the three other 63 yard kicks (taking into account the angle) would have only worked out to only 3.6 inches.
One point in Tom's favor, however, is that he made his kick at sea level in New Orleans, while the four since then (63 yards by Jason Elam, Sebastian Janikowski, and David Akers, and the 64 yarder by Matt Prater) all took place in the "Mile High City".

Akers FG was in Green Bay, not in Denver.

#16 Chase Stuart
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:06 PM
A little off topic, but a question: where was the line of scrimmage for XPs before the goal posts moved to the back of the end zone? So pre-1974, where did kickers line up? I noticed that XP conversion rates dropped dramatically from 96.8% in 1973 to 90.6% in 1974. I would assume this was all due to making the goal posts 10 yards farther back, but then I got curious about the LOS on XPs in the pre-1974 days.

#17 rhickok1109
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:00 PM
Chase Stuart, on 08 Mar 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:
A little off topic, but a question: where was the line of scrimmage for XPs before the goal posts moved to the back of the end zone? So pre-1974, where did kickers line up? I noticed that XP conversion rates dropped dramatically from 96.8% in 1973 to 90.6% in 1974. I would assume this was all due to making the goal posts 10 yards farther back, but then I got curious about the LOS on XPs in the pre-1974 days.
As far as I know, the LOS for 1-point conversions has always been the 2-yard line in the NFL. Certainly it has been from 1946 on. When the NCAA adopted the 2-point conversion in 1958, the LOS was moved back to the 3-yard line.

I think, but I'm not sure, that the AFL required a team to declare whether it was going for a 1- or 2-point conversion, and the ball was placed at the 2- or 3-yard line, depending on the decision. I hope someone can clarify that for me.

#18 Chase Stuart
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:14 PM
rhickok1109, on 08 Mar 2014 - 1:00 PM, said:
As far as I know, the LOS for 1-point conversions has always been the 2-yard line in the NFL. Certainly it has been from 1946 on. When the NCAA adopted the 2-point conversion in 1958, the LOS was moved back to the 3-yard line.

I think, but I'm not sure, that the AFL required a team to declare whether it was going for a 1- or 2-point conversion, and the ball was placed at the 2- or 3-yard line, depending on the decision. I hope someone can clarify that for me.
Interesting. That makes sense given the high success rate, but I'm trying to picture how the defense lined up with the goal post in the middle of things. Anyone have a picture of an XP from prior to 1974?

#19 Chase Stuart
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:16 PM
Here's one, which seems to confirm that the LOS was the 2:
http://timelifeblog....

#20 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:52 PM
Mark
Today, 08:54 AM
"... sea level..."

Before addressing "sea level" - It was not Tom Dempsey. It was an "old-time" fan or member of the press writing about a FG back in the days when it could be kicked from a point maybe 5 yards-or-so from the sideline. It was just a comment in an otherwise non-kicking-related article and I simply cannot recall who or why or when or where. It is just another deficiency caused by the inability to apply for a genius card.

However, you are right on the money regarding the Dempsey FG. The elevation of Tulane Stadium (the former Sugar Bowl) IS Zero feet.
To know that, you MUST have a genius card.
One might then say that the Saints moved up in the world when they began play in the Dome. It is an dizzying 3 feet above sea level. Wow!
So, can we proudly say that the good old US of A (that's America) is home to both the highest and the lowest venue in terms of elevation?

Of course somewhere some genius is digging through boxes of molding pieces of paper and will soon tell us that something called the Boychikdrome in outer Siberia is the lowest of the low.

Taking the tongue out of the cheek for a moment: it is alleged that more concussions occur in higher elevations.

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oldecapecod 11

NFL might experiment with making extra-point attempts longer
Started by Mark L. Ford, Mar 04 2014 02:09 PM

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57 replies to this topic

#21 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 02:00 PM
Chase
Today, 12:16 PM
"Here's one..."

GREAT photo (or "still," I imagine.)
It verifies the point and it also reminds people that Rosie Brown played on the goal-line D.
It looks as though the Redskins thought he did not belong there and left him alone.
It also looks as though he might have blocked that kick. Did he?

#22 3243
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 03:54 PM
(Nevermind. I just typed a post that I typed a couple of nights ago. Feel free to eliminate this post.)

#23 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:46 PM
Teo, on 08 Mar 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:
Akers FG was in Green Bay, not in Denver.
Oops, my mistake on that one. September 9, 2012, 49ers at Green Bay... thanks.

#24 Chase Stuart
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:52 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 08 Mar 2014 - 2:00 PM, said:
Chase
Today, 12:16 PM
"Here's one..."

GREAT photo (or "still," I imagine.)
It verifies the point and it also reminds people that Rosie Brown played on the goal-line D.
It looks as though the Redskins thought he did not belong there and left him alone.
It also looks as though he might have blocked that kick. Did he?
Unless it was a preseason game, no. The kicker was Bob Khayat, who missed only 2 XPs in his career, and neither came against New York.



#25 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:54 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 08 Mar 2014 - 1:52 PM, said:
Mark
Today, 08:54 AM
"... sea level..."

However, you are right on the money regarding the Dempsey FG. The elevation of Tulane Stadium (the former Sugar Bowl) IS Zero feet.
To know that, you MUST have a genius card.
One might then say that the Saints moved up in the world when they began play in the Dome. It is an dizzying 3 feet above sea level. Wow!
So, can we proudly say that the good old US of A (that's America) is home to both the highest and the lowest venue in terms of elevation?

I thought about it, and one could say that the stadium in Mexico City has been the highest venue -- don't know if they've used it since the Cardinals played there a few years ago.

Say, weren't we supposed to turn in our genius cards last week?

#26 luckyshow
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:35 PM
I would add the following related to certain of my ideas.

One would be about the no-substitution rule I propose for the EP (XP, PAT, conversion). Since the relapcing of the strict substitution rules came in sort of gradually in the 1940s and were much related to Ken Strong's "lobbying" of Commissioner Bel. Which was about place-kicking. He was the first specialist after his running days were over (and even sometimes before that). Well, I suppose some of these early changes may still be in the rule book maybe. Just change or remove the wording just relating to the point after. If they really want to make it harder (which I doubt, every time they changed the rule was to make it easier, Except maybe moving the posts back which was a try at preventing long FGs being so easy as well as probably safety issues) (and costs perhaps)

The idea would be making it harder. No need to leave a kicker as a deep safety on offense when close to goal line. Just have a player or two usually in the offense game, learn how to kick. It isn't heart surgery. I see nobodies kicking at those summertime festivals some teams jold at beginning of training camp. These guys are athletic, some once kicked. They used to change the rule so few would ever miss, making it "fairer," time to reverse this. Probably gamblers have the last say. It would make the point spread more hazardous in close games for both bookies and betters.

I do like the drop kick idea.

Before 1911, there was no end zone and the field was both wider and 110 yards long. Not ling before the FG was worth 5 points. So no need to go back so far.

Ideas to make the posts narrower or the crossbar higher may be good ideas, though perhaps not for FGs. Wider hash marks for sure. Are coaches unsure they can come up with more plays and formations and defenses for much wider hash marks?

As to measuring the actual distance of the kick from placement spot to posts, this makes little sense. Forst, what does it matter. Second, do they take into account the height when it passes ober the bar? What about if a kick goes through closer to one side or another. Those mere inches would be about as negligible as what might be added to a kick distance using the geometry x²+y²=z² Finally a use for high school mathematics! I still want to know why they call the long 1882 kick by Princeto a placekick when no reports mention a holder? But I guess he isn't talking about it...

Is that true that the Polo Grounds were the lowest grounds ever in United States sports stadiums?

Totally off the subject: There is a site of an old stadium that was called Washington Park. Used as the clubhouse was an old stone house. (not the centerfield clubhouse wall that still stood until recently. That was the later and last Washington Park in this area. These were home fields of what later would be called the Brooklyn Dodgers) This field was used for football, mostly high schools. In the mid 1890s that stone house was disassembled, and restored in the 1920s. It was very probably the site at which the Revolutionary War was won. At least it prevented a quick rout by the British. In the Battle of Brooklyn (aka Battle of Long Island), there were two major sites at which the patriots held off the British, allowing Washington and the Continental Army to sneak out by boat to New Jersey side. One was in what is now Prospect Park, the other was at the stone house at Gowanus (or Red Hook, if you will). See, nothing to do with this subject of placekicking at all. The Polo Grounds has different histories. The first iron grandstands built for an outdoor arena (Manhattan Field 1891), the first huge crowd for a football fame. Thanksgiving's Day in 1890, 1891. I think it was 40,000 with possiblt 10,000 more watching for free from the cliffs and streets above), the first all iron stadium (1912). No battles fought there, it was probably swamp in 1776. My personal favorite may be Eastern Park, used in the 1890s. Built by the National League Brooklyn baseball club due to its proximity to all sorts of (then) modern transportation, it was also used for football. The first non-college organized league played games, the Crescents (from Bay Ridge) hosting games, Yale using it as an occasional home field for the gate... It now has a long and mostly forgotten history. It was where the nickname "Dodgers" came about as it was near the first major traction line in the world, and one of the earliest electrified suburban traction lines (what might be called medium rail vehicle today) as well. There were Els and railroads (the Manhattan Beach line of the Long Island Railroad) So fans were always dodging trolleys and other surface traffic, whether horse rail car or train. After it closed it eventually became a huge power station for the electric freight trains coming from New England on the New Haven Railroad and the LIRR. This massive brick power station, abandoned for around 45 years now sits as a relic, a ruin, for now at least, where home plate once was.

That's a lot about unrelated material. Sorry....Ask me about Stapleton some time...

#27 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:20 PM
Chase
Today, 03:52 PM
"Unless..."

Thank you. I'm just always reachin' for anything positive about the Giants - especially after last season. Redemption is months away.
Reading your post, however, caused a bell to ring. "Bob" Khayat was not a familiar name although Khayat certainly was. I thought there was an "Ed" so looked and there was.
Were they related? They were both born in Moss Point, Mississippi but attended different colleges. They both worked in executive level capacities after football. Neither bio that I glanced at referenced the other. Moss Point cannot be such a large metropolis that it would contain hundreds of families named Khayat? Even New York might not? They were only about three years apart in age so they could not have been Father and son. (Maybe in Arkansas but not Mississippi...)

#28 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 08:00 PM
Mark
Today, 03:54 PM
"... Mexico City..."

I am surprised that "Roger the Revenue Codger" passes up an opportunity to squeeze a few more dollars from the "fans."
Maybe the coins thrown by the "fans" helped buy a few more tostitos but they could not find a use for the bags of urine.
Maybe someday, some baidarshchik building on the plains of Vladivostok will use them but not in North America.

And, Mark, I never qualified for a genius card so that threat fell on deaf ears.

http://www.nytimes.c...occer/html?_

#29 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 08:39 PM
luckyshow
Today, 05:35 PM
"I would add..."

Soon the safety issues will no longer exist regarding goalposts. We will see virtual uprights and crossbar and the accuracy of a FG or EP will be electronically judged from points not far from the replay cameras. It will create a whole new area of officiating (especially for those then unable to maintain the pace on the field) and, to keep the league on its toes, another union - perhaps: The International Amalgamated Brotherhood and Sisterhood of Retired or Too Slow National Football and Other Leagues Union of Officials. One could earn a comfortable living just printing the strike signs.
But, we are not far from the electronic "Strike Zone" so why not FGs and EPs which would be easier without human or equipment interference.

I think we had Geometry in the 7th-Grade, 8th for sure, but that equation could be part of the M-boards of each camera so that a true reading of distance will be immediately available.
(M- = Mother Boards)

Which Polo Grounds? There were at least two earlier sites named the PG, in fact, two of them abutted each other briefly. I think it was near 115th or 116th Street - not far from the legendary Church of Our Lady of Mount Carmel where the Italian community celebrates annually in the midst of East Harlem. OLMC is not to be confused with that hallowed institution some 25 blocks to the south. That is OLGC - Our Lady of Good Counsel. (Now you know why Geometry was a 7th-Grade subject. God bless the Sisters of Charity [and other Orders as well.])
As for the structure beneath Coogan's Bluff, I am sure we would have heard that before because New Yorkers tend to grab any fact to show that what you have does not measure up (in this case down) to what we have. The kick in the groin comes when we are proven wrong. It's still a toddlin' town.
But... your Washington Park facts were fascinating - just another reminder of things we took for granted in the old days. Imagine having a castle to use as part of a playground practically right in your own back yard. (Belvedere, of course, in Central Park, arguably the greatest city park in the world.)

Whenever you are ready, PLEASE, I implore you: let loose re Stapleton and be not brief.

Thank you...

#30 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 March 2014 - 11:29 PM
luckyshow, on 08 Mar 2014 - 6:35 PM, said:
As to measuring the actual distance of the kick from placement spot to posts, this makes little sense. Forst, what does it matter. Second, do they take into account the height when it passes ober the bar? What about if a kick goes through closer to one side or another. Those mere inches would be about as negligible as what might be added to a kick distance using the geometry x²+y²=z² Finally a use for high school mathematics! I still want to know why they call the long 1882 kick by Princeto a placekick when no reports mention a holder? But I guess he isn't talking about it...
That's a lot about unrelated material. Sorry....Ask me about Stapleton some time...
Oh, nobody proposed measuring actual distance of a hypotenuse or a parabola. What that was about was that, apparently, some writer suggested that Dempsey's kick was longer and more difficult than the later 63-yarders because of the hashmarks, and the difference wasn't significant (3 1/2 inches); and, at that distance, the difference in the margin for error caused by the angle wasn't significant either.... you're correct on the Pythagorean theorem as the way that it's calculated, so you get the gold star for today. I think all of us would be in agreement that mere inches would be considered negligible. There probably is some stats nut who will someday look at every highlight reel to figure "average height over the crossbar"....

#31 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 09 March 2014 - 10:41 AM
Mark: Whenever I get my Genius Card, I'm keeping it!
btw--I still can't use the quote feature on this page, which might be the very reason I have not earned a Genius Card ..

#32 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:28 AM
Jeffrey
Today, 09:41 AM
"... Genius Card..."
Jeffrey, as Jacques Brel wrote when he was alive and well and living in Paris: "...You're not alone..."
There IS something wrong with some of the features here but only for certain folks. Even if I don't qualify for a Genius Card, maybe I cudda been a contendah?

#33 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:55 PM
Ah! Brando ...

#34 luckyshow
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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:19 PM
They once used to sometimes calculate punt distance from point of kick to final resting place (even sometimes like with a home run, past the end of the end zone. With inches. Somewhere I have a few of these "records" noted.

There were three Washington Parks, or four if the last one which was an enhanced park built for the Tip Tops counts (this was the Brooklyn entry in the upstart Federal League just before the Great War. This was whence that surviving clubhouse wall came from...)

Some do a similar approach to the Polo Grounds. The first was at 5th Avenue across the street from the top of Central Park, and some note that there were actually two baseball fields there (and it was Commodore Vanderbilt's Polo Field. A statue of Vanderbilt stands on the point where the elevated road around Grand Central Terminal divides to circle it. This statue was once on the pediment at the original depot of the Hudson River RR at St. John's Place on the west side. That was a combination passenger-freight station. The first Harlem River RR depot (and also one for the New Haven RR.) was at Madison Square and became the first Madison Square Garden. The vehicular tunnel under Park Avenue south of Grand Central (which connects to the aforementioned elevated road surmounting GCT), was originally used by those steam locomotives (the railroad cut back after steam was disallowed south of 42nd street and cars had to individually be pulled by horses down to 28th street), and used by horse drawn street cars for some 50 years until electrification. These streetcars of what became the 3rd Avenue Railway (the red cars in Manhattan. The other company in the city were green cars.) ran until 1948 and always used that now auto tunnel under Park Avenue. It was the first tunnel of any kind built and used in New York City (which was just Manhattan and parts of the Bronx .

Remember that show "Connections"? It really is true that much of history is connected in one way or another. I do recall this section of my novella began discussing the various Polo Grounds. The baseball Giants played at the 110th Street Polo Ground(s) as did Yale and Princeton every Thanksgiving's Day from 1886 onward. And the American Football Union, the ostensibly amateur early league I mentioned last time without naming it., had a team in the Polo Grounds. Unlike later times, this New York based team was not the "money makers." Those would be the Orange AC and the Crescents of Brooklyn (Bay Ridge, later playing at Eastern Park in East New York (an early annexation of the City of Brooklyn, what is called Broadway Junction now was once known as Manhattan Junction). The Orange eventually became the Orange Tornadoes (or at least they adopted that name following the first great war) who would play in the NFL for a while. The New York Athletic Club was the football team in the AFU that played at the Polo Grounds. The 2nd (or 3rd if one counts two Polo Ground ballpark at the site north of Central Park. Since football fields were 110 yards long and 75 yards wide, this is kind of moot for football as the entire field was used for football, "Association football," and polo.)....the 2nd Polo Grounds was up at or near what was eventually called Coogan's Bluff (or actually below the bluff). And yes, there were two fields in 1890 with no fenced centerfields meeting each other. The second, the better field, was constructed by the upstart Players League (aka Brotherhood League) team, the league intended to break the reserve clause. It proved more successful but the money owners were in the NL (which had already cause the American Association to collapse. This was the original league of the team eventually called the Dodgers (but at this time called the Bridegrooms, in the 90s called the Superbas. Up through the 20s popularly referred to as the Robins, after their manager's name). But the Players Lg. team, although confusingly also called the Giants did not name their new park abutting the Polo Grounds, the Polo Grounds. It was just Brotherhood Park.

After that league folded after just one season as key players bolted back, the Giants moved to the better, newer field, renaming it the Polo Grounds (I call it #3, some call it #4). The old one was rebuilt as Manhattan Field. It saw the first international track meet in 1895. It had the first all iron grandstands. It only lasted abouta decade because it proved too easy to watch sports events from the cliffs above. For free. It sat as a weed field for a long time. In 1919, when Ruth first broke the home run record, his record breaking home run was hit over the (last) Polo Grounds right field roof and landed in old Manhattan Field. This is almost its only mention I could find after 1902. It was homer #27, and was the first by a lefty batter hit out of that park. Shoeless Joe Jackson had done it as a righty once.. By the way the owner of the Giants in late 1890s made George Steinbrenner seem angelic. He owned the Brooklyn team and the Baltimore club as well. He drove certain players crazy by constantly shifting them John McGraw was on Baltimore but was sent to Brooklyn with the rest of his teammates twice. He just went back to Baltimore. Then he was moved to the Giants and couldn't go back to Baltimore as they soon moved to become that Highlanders team in 1903. Baltimore would win many a minor league, International League pennant but would not get another major league team for 51 years.
That former Brotherhood Park lasted to 1911 when it burned to the ground. The Giants would play at Hilltop Park which was the ballpark of the NY Highlanders of the American League
By being allowed to play at the future Yankee's ball field (which is where Columbia Presbyterian Hospital has been since it replaced Hilltop Park), this would lead to the Giants allowing the renamed Yankees to play at the rebuilt Polo Grounds (I call #4, some call #5, but this one and the one before had so many refurbishments, one could number each one as a new one). The Yankees would co-play there until Babe Ruth proved too popular and the Giants evicted them. So they built Yankee Stadium (#1 of 2...or 3). The last Polo Grounds was a marvel for the time. I think the first all iron and steel stadium ever.

The 65 yard field goal by Haxall of Princeton was in 1882. If I said a later date for first Yale v Princeton game at the Polo Grounds, I meant 1882), so it was the first Polo Grounds. This was the last year before points were assigned to the various ways of scoring (a touch being worth nothing but giving you a chance to try a goal (touch being touchdown, goal being the EP, as opposed to "goal from field). There was another 65 yard field goal (a drop kick against Alabama), in 1892. The record would not be equaled or bettered until 10/16/1976, when there was a 65 yarder by Tony Franklin of Texas A&M and a 69 yard FG by Ove Johansson
of Abilene Christian, an NAIA team, and still the record. I think this was the first year tees were allowed in college football.

In 1883, a touchdown was worth 2 points, the conversion goal after the TD was worth 4, a field goal worth 5. A safety 1 (becoming 2 pts. the next year)

FG TD PAT S
1883 5 2 4 1
1884-1896 5 4 2 2
1897-1903 5 5 1 2
1904-1908 4 5 1 2
1909-1911 3 5 1 2
1912-1957 3 6 1 2
1958-1987 3 6 1or2 2
1988- now 3 6 1or2 2 + 2 points for defensive return of failed PAT. 1 point for a safety if one occurs on PAT attempt. In 1922 PAT 1st allowed to be scored on run, pass or drop kick from 5 yard line, for 1 point. Before this the PAT was only allowed by placement

The two-point conversion:
N.C.A.A. from 1958
A.F.L. 1960 to 1969
N.F.L. from 1994

#35 luckyshow
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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:28 PM
Definitely get rid of that inane kicking football

#36 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:04 AM
Lucky

What happened to Stapleton?

Remember Spencer Tracy? "The Last Hurrah" - Stapleton, Stapleton, We all vote for Stapleton. Or was that Skeffington and "Cast your vote for?..."
Whatever, the masses await Stapleton.
Thanks...

#37 rhickok1109
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:30 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 11 Mar 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:
Lucky
What happened to Stapleton?
Remember Spencer Tracy? "The Last Hurrah" - Stapleton, Stapleton, We all vote for Stapleton. Or was that Skeffington and "Cast your vote for?..."
Whatever, the masses await Stapleton.
Thanks...
Skeffington

#38 luckyshow
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:24 PM
Even though I overindulged in the scribbling (I tend to be verbose, especially when I need to just go to sleep), this may not be correct place for Stapleton, Maureen or otherwise...To do it justice I would have to go back to St. George for more research. At least to copy some pertinent articles. For some reason credit is not given for the Stapes having a continuing history from pre war days through the NFL days. Ownership, management, the coach, many players. They built that new stadium intending some sort of "big time" I think that team may have first came up with the protective face mask for an injury.
http://www.luckyshow...926headgear.htm
Thompson Field opened 9/4/1924. First game I have is 10/5/1924, a 10-0 win over the team from College Point (this is just south of Flushing in Queens), On 10/12, they lost 27-6 against the Frankford Yellow Jackets At the time this made the Stapes all-time record 107-6-0.
•On 11/23/1924, they tied the NFL's Wilkes-Barre Panthers.
•On Dec. 20, 1925, they were supposed to play the New Britain Bears of NFL, but the Giants invoked territorial rights to prevent the game from being played. The Giants beat them in an exhibtion game (for the Giants) on Thanksgiving's Day 1925, 7-0.
•Capacity was only 10,000. at Thompson Field. I have never quite figured out where it was. Stapleton is very built up now. In their NFL days, sell outs were reported as 12,000.
•For what it's worth, on 11/28/1926, they routed the Cleveland Panthers 20-0. They had been in the AFL..
•They beat the Duluth Eskimos 7-6, 11/27/1927
•In 1928, their only loss was 14-13 against the Frankford Yellow Jackets before 8,000 at Thompson, they beat the NY Giants 7-0 on Thanksgiving Day before 8,000, in 1929 they entered the NFL. Through 1932. They played independently in 1933, 1-4 against NFL teams (beating the Eagles 7-0)

Not really much Stapleton history this time. That comes in future days, but probably under its own subject heading.

#39 Bob Gill
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:37 PM
About that game on Nov. 23, 1924: The Wilkes-Barre Panthers weren't in the NFL. They had started the season as members of the Anthracite League, but turned out to be over their heads and only played a game or two. It also didn't help that one home game was canceled when the sheriff or somebody came out on the field just before the starting time and said the state law didn't allow them to play on Sunday.

What I wanted to ask is, what was the score of their game against the Stapes? Do you have any other information about it? I'm just kind of interested in the Wilkes-Barre team, though they were inconsequential.

#40 luckyshow
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:55 PM
I didn't copy most reports on these games, print out. The main library at St George (this is up the hill from where the ferry lands and now the minor league baseball park is) has the worst microfilm machines I have ever experienced, worse than Farmingdale, wore than anywhere. Or did last time I was there which was a bunch of years ago. So I can't provide anything. I don't even know why I wrote down NFL, unless they called it the Pennsylvania National Football League (as my notes seem to say), which would make about as much sense as National Football League Europe, but never mind. The Stapes used to play many teams from those eastern mining towns. I assume mining towns since one league was called the Anthracite League (which by the way, is "clean" coal, why the Lackawanna was the route of Phoebe Snow. It is harder than bituminus. Not sure which coal is strip mined now in West Virginia...

11/4/1923 Brickley's Giants 0-12 at Stapes (Home Field: East Shore Oval 11/4/1923
11/23/1924 Stapes T 3-3 Wilkes-Barre Panthers
10/25/1925 Wilkes-Barre Panthers at Stapes rained out
11/8/1925 Wilkes-Barre at Stapleton, rained out
11/21/1925 Stapleton 33-0 Wilkes-Barre Panthers, at Thompson Field
10/23/1927 Stapes at home 20-6 against Wilkes-Barre, called both the Panthers and the Coal Miners

They would also play the Bethlehem Bears, Pottsville Maroons, Millville, All-Lancaster (aka Lancaster Pros), Coaldale Miners, Atlantic City Roses, Perth Amboy Clovers... I would love to do Atlantoc City and Perth Amboy but need better access to their microfilmed old local papers (for such as Paterson as well)
As it is I have not completed the Stapes research. I used to go regularly but only once probably since 9/11. I probably suspended research mid-1926. A team with the name was playing in 1950, there was also a Quartermasters team through the 1940s I am interested in...If only I were rich...

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oldecapecod 11

NFL might experiment with making extra-point attempts longer
Started by Mark L. Ford, Mar 04 2014 02:09 PM

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#41 Bob Gill
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:21 PM
Thanks for that Nov. 23 score. That was a Wilkes-Barre game I didn't know about.

As for the Stapes in 1926, the owner -- Dan Blaine, I think -- bought the Newark Bears team from the AFL (the Red Grange league) in the latter part of that season. I think the Bears had already dropped out of the AFL after failing to win a game, or it might've been that the league appeared to be sinking and their backers wanted to get out while they still could. Some of those Newark players, like Doug Wycoff, became mainstays of the Stapes for the next several years, during which they improved enough to make them a reasonably competitive a franchise in the NFL.

#42 luckyshow
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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:07 AM
I do have this noted, that following 11/14/1926 (when the Stapes lost 33-0 against these Newark Bears), that they fired most of their players and replaced them with Newark Bears players, Playing 4 games after 11/21 with those players. They had beaten the Orange Golden Tornadoes 6-0 and 7-0 during the season. With the Newark players, they beat them 25-7. Also a game against Frankford was snowed out. Newark had been thrown out of the AFL in October.

Playing aas the Newark Bears, on 12/11/1926, they beat Fort Benning, at Atlanta, 100 to 0. I've never found other games, but I think they played them.

I know of this, but it wasn't until 1929 that they joined the NFL.. In 1927, under coach Harold Hanson, their only losses (2) were to the New York Giants, and they were called the "Wonder Team." On 11/8, they held Gene Smith Daay. I think he'd been with the Stapes for years.

#43 classic3283
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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:39 PM
A lot of different topics going on here. All interesting facts and thoughts.

XPs: The other day I came across an article that mentioned Bert Bell wanted the NFL to eliminate the extra point kick. This was back in 1952.

Elevation: Oakland Coliseum - I refuse to call it O.co Coliseum - has the lowest elevation in the league. I believe the playing field is 21 feet below sea level. Don't quote me on that specific number though. In the truest sense the Raiders are the league's team from the underworld.

Thompson Stadium: Using some references from Google Books I believe Thompson Stadium was located on the corner of Warren and Hill Street in Stapleton.
https://www.google.c...4ee10292527cb84

Like This
FootballGeography.com - Where Football History Has a Place

#44 John Grasso
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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:43 PM
luckyshow, on 11 Mar 2014 - 3:55 PM, said:
1
I would love to do Atlantoc City and Perth Amboy but need better access to their microfilmed old local papers (for such as Paterson as well)



If you can get to the Rutgers library in New Brunswick they have an excellent newspaper collection on microfilm of New Jersey and Pennsylvania papers. I believe it's located in the library's basement. You can just help yourself and don't need to have a librarian get them for you. I used that facility when I worked on the early pro section of Total Basketball.

#45 Guest_BigMck_*
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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:09 PM
rhickok1109, on 08 Mar 2014 - 1:00 PM, said:
I think, but I'm not sure, that the AFL required a team to declare whether it was going for a 1- or 2-point conversion, and the ball was placed at the 2- or 3-yard line, depending on the decision. I hope someone can clarify that for me.
The AFL always had the two yard line for the XP and no declaration was required for the 1 or 2 point try.

#46 rhickok1109
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:03 AM
BigMck, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:
The AFL always had the two yard line for the XP and no declaration was required for the 1 or 2 point try.
Okay, thanks

#47 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:17 AM
classic3283, on 12 Mar 2014 - 4:39 PM, said:
A lot of different topics going on here. All interesting facts and thoughts.

XPs: The other day I came across an article that mentioned Bert Bell wanted the NFL to eliminate the extra point kick. This was back in 1952.
That's true-- in fact, the NFL owners voted 7-5 to make touchdowns worth seven points, and to eliminate the extra point. I'll have to check, but I think that they were in favor of overtime by the same margin. However, a 3/4ths plus one majority (10 of 12 votes) was required for approval.

#48 GreenRider668907
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:32 PM
According to this article, Bert Bell and Earle "Greasy" Neale presented the idea of eliminating the XP as a way to speed up the game back in January 1945. They also proposed to eliminate tie games by instituting a "sudden death" period:
http://news.google.c...&pg=4358,674284

#49 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 04:07 PM
Interesting find-- looking at the overtime proposal, it called for up to three extra quarters in a regular season game, which would end in a tie only if neither team could score again in the extra-extra-extra (another 3/4 of a game) time. Of course, a little more than a year earlier, there had been a scoreless tie after four quarters. Good thing that it wasn't taken seriously at the time; it took until 1974 for the TV networks to be persuaded that overtime was worthwhile...
As to the substitution, I was reading that one too-- there was provision for a delay of game penalty, but how long did they think it would take for one player to come in as the other was leaving?

#50 Guest_BigMck_*
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:19 PM
GreenRider668907, on 13 Mar 2014 - 1:32 PM, said:
According to this article, Bert Bell and Earle "Greasy" Neale presented the idea of eliminating the XP as a way to speed up the game back in January 1945. They also proposed to eliminate tie games by instituting a "sudden death" period:
http://news.google.c...&pg=4358,674284

When did the NFL institute the "Sudden Death" for Championship Games? Has it always been that way from the start?

#51 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:24 PM
Interesting indeed; but, are we being altogether fair concerning the time.
One of the reasons given for the denial of my Genius Card was that I do not always remember when or where; however, I do recall that the clock did not stop every time someone passed gas or waved to his granny.
What I do remember is that the network (actually station because the intertwinement of the media was hardly then what it is today) allowed an initial time block of two hours for a game broadcast.
So, we could watch a 2:00 pm kickoff of a NYG game and it would be over in time to hear "Good evening, Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea."

#52 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:37 PM
BigMck, on 13 Mar 2014 - 5:19 PM, said:
When did the NFL institute the "Sudden Death" for Championship Games? Has it always been that way from the start?

It happened in 1941.

#53 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:11 PM
"It happened in 1941..."

Not the "newspaper article" but just as good...
http://www.profootba...L-Playoff-Game/

#54 classic3283
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:35 PM
Thanks for the additional XP info Mark and GreenRider. I didn't realize that the idea went back to 1945, nor that the league put it to an actual vote. I just thought it was one of those "crazy" ideas that the commissioner just threw out there. Kind of like what happens today.

In regards to OT. I always thought it was peculiar that in 1936 the NFL owners voted to play another NFL Championship Game if the first one ended in a tie. It's like the concept of OT wasn't even on their minds... Unless of course they were just trying to develop a championship series like baseball had with the World Series.
FootballGeography.com - Where Football History Has a Place

#55 65 toss power trap
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:11 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 13 Mar 2014 - 4:07 PM, said:
Interesting find-- looking at the overtime proposal, it called for up to three extra quarters in a regular season game, which would end in a tie only if neither team could score again in the extra-extra-extra (another 3/4 of a game) time. Of course, a little more than a year earlier, there had been a scoreless tie after four quarters.
Actually, it seems some editor changed "three time outs" to "three times outs," which makes it look like "quarters of 15 minutes each, three times"

I think it was to proposed to go on indefinitely until the tie was broken, under the existing divisional-playoff sudden-death rules.

Mark L. Ford, on 13 Mar 2014 - 5:37 PM, said:
It happened in 1941. I had located a newspaper article from the 1930s or 1940, that I can't locate now, where the NFL actually planned to declare "co-champions" and split the take in the event that a title game ended in a tie
My recollection was that the 1941 provision was for sudden death in divisional playoffs only, since one team had to advance to the championship game. It wasn't until 1946 or '47 that the championship game sudden-death provision was added.

Imagine how different things would have turned out if the Giants were co-champions in 1958.

#56 luckyshow
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:37 PM
I have a vague recollection of reading about a league in very early 1940s who would have used sudden death if their championship game had ended in a tie. Not sure if it was to be sudden death or not. It may have been the American Association, but it may have been the local Nassau County, Long Island semi-pro league. There were so many of these odd ideas during the 30s and 40s, I would just note them somewhere and move on. I can't remember any details past the scant ones above and it would take quite sometime, if ever, to locate it. Anyway since it was at around the same time as noted above about the NFL at the time, it wouldn't matter much.....

I don't see it in the minor league book on the American league, if it was that leaague, maybe Bob knows anything?

#57 65 toss power trap
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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:03 PM
Going off the top of my head ... there was another league that attempted to resolve a tied divisional playoff with a "replay game" midweek, but that the midweek game was snowed out. I think it was around 1940, because I seem to remember that happened a year before the NFL sudden death rule.

#58 Bob Gill
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Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:19 AM
Yes, 1940 was the year of the snowed-out rematch. Long Island and Newark finished tied for fourth place in the American Association -- the last playoff position -- and played an extra game to finalize the playoff field, but the game ended in a scoreless tie. Apparently nobody thought of playing until one team scored; instead, they scheduled another game for the following Thursday, and that was the one that was snowed out. So they finally settled it by tossing a coin (three out of five), and Newark won.

As for luckyshow's mention of possible sudden death, you might be thinking of the American Association's 1937 championship game, which ended in a 3-3 tie. Newark and White Plains were declared co-champions. At the end of the game, Newark offered to play an extra quarter, and the league president, Joe Rosentover, approved the idea, but White Plains (a big underdog) vetoed the idea.

In the 1936 Dixie League championship game, Washington beat Baltimore 3-0 on a field goal with 13 seconds remaining. If the kick had been no good, Baltimore would have won, because the league had planned to decide the title based on first downs.

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