Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame 2

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Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame (Part 2)

Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM

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#61 luckyshow
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:57 PM
As to earlier message above (which I saw too late to include in above), I mentioned Camp and Stagg, just because if it were serious to mention T.R.- to extrapolate these men, both Roosevelt and the game's founding fathers (or close enough) to the future; to be honored by a PRO HOF.....I don't buy it. Or else why not the Aztecs who played a game kicking around a ball (or a skull) get a HOF bust?

And yes, whether intended or not, admitting the Negro League era players could be a positive in terms of attendance, of attention, to Cooperstown. Probably doesn't stop the trend of which sports blacks are going into, though. No actual woman has a plaque, it is only an exhibit. Being as how the women's league was formed thinking the war might close down the sport, it is important history. That almost nothing is mentioned about how they were required to wear mini skirts and slide in them, and exactly what this means in a social science sense, well that's another story. Requiring lipstick and short skirts was not meant to attract the female fan.

Lindemann and Roone were not like Stagg and Roosevelt, as they were directly related to the pros.

I don't think Springfield HOF has much to do with NFL. There really are no analogous leagues or entities to [college and pro], to AIAW, to FIBA, etc. Except as I noted before, the pre-NFL pro histories, and perhaps some innovators in early ideas about OT or the barnstorming black teams.

But basketball is a sport where one can see the combining of pro and college. Back when the pro game was played behind cages and there was the other kind of dribble that was more like a mass play in old football-when the pro game was tedious, slow and closer to wrestling than basketball-the college game was all there really was. That and the AAU. And this lasted, really, until the BAA. It is only at Springfield due to college and YMCA origins. Because of Naismith, who I wouldn't be surprised if I learned he was against professional sports. Bow, sure, this is not that different than the amateur football game being all there mainly was before the NFL in 1920, as 1946 is not exactly yesterday. It just works with basketball. It just does. It wouldn't with football.

Where would a pro basketball HOF be located? Is there really a fan base, a tourist base, for splitting Springfield? What for? And then some would not want to acknowledge the early 1960s ABL, or even the early ABA (some might argue the entire ABA span, (Others say the 1970s ABA was stronger than the 1970s NBA).

It makes sense for basketball. It just is a sport where one can honor women, pros, international, even youth, all in same spot. It works. At least to me it does.

Also, WOR, channel 9, broadcast both Dodgers and Giants baseball from 1951 until they moved to California. A limited schedule, maybe only home games. From 1958 to 1961 they broadcast selected Philadelphia Phillies games, mostly those against the LA Dodgers or SF Giants.

By the way, the first World Series TV broadcast in 1947, seen in selected markets, was actually on cable, coaxial cable. Only TVs connected to the cable could view it. When was the first NFL game in color? First championship game in color?

I bet the AFL had color first as it was on NBC, but maybe too late for that to matter

#62 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:56 PM
luckyshow
"... That almost nothing is mentioned about how they were required to wear mini skirts and slide in them, and exactly what this means in a social science sense, well that's another story. Requiring lipstick and short skirts was not meant to attract the female fan..."

Strange? I guess the eyes go along with the legs?
But, I have not seen a chorus line of Chippendales prancing along the sidelines lately to attract the female fan and I doubt the costumes of the cheerleaders' corps have been designed to appeal to him, her, or sign in please.
When the boys went "Over There," they took pictures of people like Betty Grable with them - not Clark Gable or Oscar Wilde.

"... Lindemann and Roone ... were directly related to the pros..."

Nonsense! One of five people in America (US version) are involved in industries related to the automobile. Would you say that the delivery man for the local auto parts store is directly related to General Motors? I doubt it.
Both Lindemann and Arledge had successful careers in television and ADDED to that success by taking advantage of football.

"... When was the first NFL game in color?.."

On November 25, 1965 (Thanksgiving Day), CBS featured the first-ever color broadcast of a regular-season NFL game, the traditional Thanksgiving Day game at Detroit. It was only the second time the network's first color mobile unit had been used (it had been used a month earlier to cover the attempted launch of an Atlas-Agena which was to have been the rendezvous target for the Gemini 6 space mission). Only a handful of games during the rest of the season were shown in color, along with the NFL Western Conference Playoff, the NFL Championship Game,[5] the Playoff Bowl and the Pro Bowl. In 1966, most of the network's NFL games were broadcast in color, and by 1968, all of the network's NFL telecasts were in color.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/NFL_on_CBS

"... From 1958 to 1961 they (WOR) broadcast selected Philadelphia Phillies games, mostly those against the LA Dodgers or SF Giants..."

If you say so re the Dodgers and Giants...
However, the reason was that WOR was a New Jersey based station and felt the Philadelphia to New York "corridor" of New Jersey was not being properly serviced by New York and Philadelphia-based stations. (Actually, New Jersey has little else but that corridor that is of any import.)
So, the baseball broadcasts had little to do with baseball - just a shot at Phillie stations for doing a disservice to The Garden State.

#63 luckyshow
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:54 AM
<If you say so re the Dodgers and Giants>
History says so.
<So, the baseball broadcasts had little to do with baseball - just a shot at Phillie stations for doing a disservice to The Garden State.>
Except they only started after the Dodgers and Giants split completely (the Dodgers played a lot of homje games in Jersey City their last season). Never showing just when they'd played the Phillies. Television on a frequency such as channel 9 which I think already had their transmitter on the Empire State Building, would not really reach that many in the parts of New Jersey that were Phillies fans, except under good tropospheric conditions for DXing, random events due to weather conditions. They had been carrying baseball for some 8 years and while most New Yorkers hated that they left, some stayed fans until the Mets, some until this day if still around. Are there books on this period that state what you state? Obviously in mostly broadcasting games involving Phillies fans, this was one objective, but the coverage area is the NY SMSA, so mostly the part of New Jersey closer to Manhattan than the Philly market. Seems they stopped after they got the Mets in 1962. Not sure what else WOR broadcast. Mostly movies all day, and Claude Kirschner, with a kids program.

#64 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:43 AM
I'm late on this thread, but I have to comment on Thorpe ...

since this is the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame, Thorpe belongs for several reasons. Yes, he was the APFA's first "president" (quotes because it was in name only), and he was the league's greatest draw in the first year or two. But let's not forget that the Canton Bulldogs of the mid to late teens was a pro team--easily the most famous and successful pro team in the country. Their success and fame is to a great measure attributable to Jim Thorpe ...

As for Stagg, yes, quite an innovator, but remember that he was a rabid anti-professional crusader. Hard to justify putting someone who despised athletic professionalism into a "Pro" football shrine.

Edit: Luckyshow, sorry, I went back and re-read your message just now. Thought the discussion looped Stagg's name as relative to the HOF. Your points are very well made!

#65 luckyshow
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:12 PM
As to who broadcast who (does "whom" enter into that passage?). Well, it is even more complicated as in the following it is said that WPIX broadcast the baseball Giants home games in at least 1951. But everything else is sort of how I said. With added complexity:

That first broadcast and other early WOR-TV shows emanated from the New Amsterdam Roof Theatre, located west of Times Square. For a short time, the station's transmitter operated from WOR TV Tower in North Bergen, New Jersey and was later moved to the Empire State Building. In 1949, the station moved uptown to the newly constructed "9 Television Square" facility on West 67th Street (near the present-day location of WABC-TV (channel 7)

In 1953, WOR-TV began operating a separate studio for news and special events programming located on the 83rd floor of the Empire State Building

During the early years of RKO General ownership (from 1955), WOR-TV moved back to Times Square, and closer to its radio station sisters. Channel 9's studios were co-located with WOR radio at 1440 Broadway (near West 40th Street).

As an independent station, channel 9's schedule was heavy on sports programming. Early in its history, WOR-TV established itself as the home of National League baseball in New York, carrying Brooklyn Dodgers (beginning in 1950) and New York Giants games (beginning in 1951) until both teams moved to California following the 1957 season.

From 1958 to 1961, the station aired a limited schedule of Philadelphia Phillies games, consisting of matchups against the Dodgers and Giants.

The Dodgers had a history with television, involved in the first ever broadcast of a major league baseball game in 1939. On 1951 (still pre-red numbers) the Dodgers participated in the first color broadcast of an MLB game.

From "CenterField Shot: A History of Baseball on Television" by James R. Walker & Robert V. Bellamy:
" On October 1, 1951, CBS transmitted coast to coast the first game of the famed three-game playoff between the New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers. But it was not a simple operation. CBS got the game rights but needed to get the signal from ABC, which had already made arrangements for national distribution. ABC got the game coverage from WOR-TV, which had telecast the Dodgers' regular-season games. Rights to the second and third games were purchased by NBC from WPIX, which carried the Giants' home schedule. For the three playoff games, CBS and NBC shared the microwave relay connection across the United States and exchanged time to allow each network to carry its game(s) to conclusion" This was the first nationally televised sports event?

Later on there is this fun passage: "Coast-to-coast baseball continued with the 1951 World Series, produced by New York station, WOR=TV and telecast nationally on NBC. Variety was impressed with 'TV's Slick Performance' and particularly pleased that the Series was presented 'with a minimum of added frills.'"

How tastes have changed. This was well before Joe Buck, as well as such as those animated transformer robots and continual noise at stadiums and over the air. Only dirty words are elided now.

As to the Phillies, so far all I found was the following:
<Associated Press (December 6, 1958). "Phils Won't Pipe Games Here in '59". The New York Times. p. 29. "The Philadelphia Philles won't televise their National League games into New York City next season...The games were piped into New York, often in competition with the American League home games of the New York Yankees...The Phillies' contests were never able to match the audience attracted to Yankee telecasts.">

Also:
"With the move of the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants to California prior to the 1958 season, the Phillies became the closest National League club to New York City, and in response, contracted to broadcast 78 games into the New York metropolitan television market to fill the void in National League games on TV in New York. Al Helfer and Rex Barney called the games for New York's WOR-TV"

78 Phillies games were supposed to be broadcast in 1968 which would be 42 more than they played against the Giants and Dodgers, but I don't know what actually was televised. I could check the listing in NY Times. But won't be doing that.

#66 luckyshow
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:47 PM
One more thing. Fenneman and Roone Arledge. I can't say much on the former, I keep thinking of the Fenneman for Lipton Ice Tea, the announcer on Groucho Marx' You Bet Your Life.

But Monday Night Football: without it, maybe the NFL doesn't get so big, or at least it would have maybe taken longer. It made prime time ready for the NFL, for football in general. The broadcasts, the announcers were talked about more than the games many times. It got women interested in larger numbers. Now the Super Bowl would have eventually covered all of this, probably, but not in 1970s. What did people talk about? Eventually it was SNL and MNF. And Arledge was a major force behind it. I don't know if this qualifies for HoF membership, but it is far different than Teddy Roosevelt, who had nothing to do with pro football.

I am certainly not putting forward that Yale player who was the first admitted amateur to take salary or payments to play. Nor Pete Gogolak who began the salary wars and raidings between leagues and led to the merger and NFL popularity explosion. Nor Namath for such reasons or even that his Super Bowl prediction, et al, made the Super Bowl of accelerated importance (which could just be the New York market Which makes me think how the Polo Grounds for 1934 championship, Yankee Stadium for 1958, and the Orange Bowl for the Jets win, should all be inducted for similar reasons. Can a stadium be inducted to the HoF?)

#67 BD Sullivan
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:45 PM
And yes, whether intended or not, admitting the Negro League era players could be a positive in terms of attendance, of attention, to Cooperstown. Probably doesn't stop the trend of which sports blacks are going into, though. No actual woman has a plaque, it is only an exhibit.
*************
I bet the AFL had color first as it was on NBC, but maybe too late for that to matter
Incorrect: Effa Manley, co-owner of the Newark Bears is a full-fledged member of the Baseball HOF: http://baseballhall....hof/manley-effa

Correct: NBC showed all 1965 Jets home games in color, spurred on by the addition of Joe Namath

#68 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:15 M
That's fascinating stuff, B.D., and it's confirmed by the newspapers of October 31, 1965-- Denver at New York was indeed in color (the three Jets' home games before that were all on Saturday, when NBC showed college football instead of the AFL). The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia chose its words carefully, citing the Thanksgiving Day game as "the first NFL game broadcast in color", with no mention of the AFL broadcast in its chronology.

#69 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:23 PM
BD Sullivan

Incorrect: Effa Manley, co-owner of the Newark Bears is a full-fledged member of the Baseball HOF:
http://baseballhall....hof/manley-effa

Unfortunately, this is correct.

This woman is the one referenced on the very first page of this thread.

That entire "selection" process was a sham and anyone who participated in it should hang their heads in shame. "Letters to the Editor" boxes across the nation were filled with protests - all, of course, to no avail.

In the opinions of some, this travesty made a mockery of everything Cooperstown is hoped to represent but, like so many other short-comings of the various halls of fame, it will soon be covered with the manure of purification.

Too bad !!! Most of the other Negro Leaguers of that class were truly deserving enshrines.

From Page 1

Baseball lost all credibility with its Negro Leagues' catch-up nonsense a few years back.

They created a "committee," allocated a few million for R&D, gave the chair to a white ex-comm, (That's c-o-m-m, not c-o-n.) and waited for results.

After one major party at a posh resort, the committee members dispersed.

Each was given some of the R&D money and it was agreed that each would put forth the candidate of their choice and all would approve.

The result: In one case, the wife of an owner known for sleeping with the teams' players is now a bona fide hall of fame membress. (Her husband once traded a player enjoying her favors for a used bat and a pair of sliding pads - also used but no one knows by whom.)

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#70 John Grasso
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:19 AM
A few comments regarding Paul's (Lucky Show) comments on early tv.
We got our first tv in August 1950 - a 16" Philco set that I still have although no longer watch.
I watched Yankee and Giant baseball games on WPIX - channel 11
but was unable to follow the Dodgers who were on WOR - channel 9 because our reception
of the channel had ghosts (duplicate images) probably because that station was transmitting
from New Jersey and we lived in Queens.

I vaguely remember the Yankees also being on the DuMont tv station - WABD - channel 5 in the
first year or two that I watched them (1950-51) but don't remember if they were on both channels
simultaneously - I think they were.

By the mid-1950s we no longer had ghosts on channel 9 but by then I was an avid Yankee and Giant fan
and seldom watched the Dodgers even though I could.

We had the World Series each year featuring one or more of our home teams and I believe it was
televised on NBC - channel 4 along with the local station that covered the teams but I could be mistaken
as to which stations televised the Series.

The Dodgers played seven games in Jersey City in 1956 and eight in 1957 and I believe most were televised
on channel 9. http://sabr.org/rese...ers-jersey-city

The season after the Dodgers and Giants left town channel 9 (former Dodgers station) televised some
Phillies' games and I vaguely remember channel 13 - WATV televising a few St. Louis Cardinals games.

In 1960 after Castro nationalized industries in Cuba the Havana Sugar Kings moved to Jersey City in July and
one of the NY stations (probably channel 9) televised some of Jersey City's games. One memory is that
in their very first game, the very first batter got hit with a pitch and had to be removed from the game.

Regarding Claude Kirchner - he was the ringmaster of ABC's Super Circus - I don't remember him on
WOR although he might have been.

#71 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:46 AM
John Grasso

No doubt the reason you still have the Philco is because you can't get four guys together to carry it out. People in Queens never had to look up five or six stories to watch out for one of those old consoles to come crashing down.
On the bright side, if you happened to drop the telephone - even from the roof - you could splice the wires (There were only three.) and the thing would work just fine.

Are you sure the Giants were on Channel 11? I cannot remember that.
I do remember that Mel Allen would drink Ballantine on camera. How about THAT?
I also remember that I had to watch Ed Herlihy and the "Horn & Hardart Children's Hour" every Sunday after Mass.
Two of the parish kids were featured frequently and my Mother said it was an act of loyalty.

A New York fact:
I have heard many people say they are from Brooklyn or from The Bronx.
I have even heard people say they are from Queens or from Staten Island.
But, I have never, ever heard anyone from Yorkville say they were from Manhattan.

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#72 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 10:43 AM
>> But, I have never, ever heard anyone from Yorkville say they were from Manhattan.

Come to think of it, nobody from Harlem ever says that they grew up on Manhattan Island.... This thread must have set a record for most tangents veered off upon... we've talked about basketball, four USFL teams that might have gone to the NFL, the New York Brown Bombers, how Canadian football is different from the American version, Teddy "Ridiculous" Roosevelt, the new PFHOF Mission statement, the SEC, Gregg "Bountygate" Williams, gambling, Jim Thorpe, color TV, a visit to South Dakota, and New York geography... regarding the original topic, Damon Allen, either he didn't try for a a multi-million dollar contract because he was content with less than NFL rookie pay, never earning an annual salary of more 150,000 Canadian dollars-- or his superstardom was greatly exaggerated by Sports Illustrated. I tend to think it's the latter.

#73 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:53 AM
Mark L. Ford
"... Harlem..."

And when they say "Harlem," they are being quite geographically specific. They do not mean "East Harlem" which is south of Yorkville and separated by "The Rio Grande," which is actually 96th Street - EAST 96th Street, that is.
And then there is "Spanish Harlem" and you can be sure it is not known for its roses. Whoever wrote that song had to be a tourist.

There are others too - some more colorful, some more descriptive: "Little Italy," "Hell's Kitchen," "Morningside Heights," "The Silk Stocking District," "The Village" (Greenwich, of course,) and "Wall Street" denoting far more than a thoroughfare and is the only area of the world where the opening bell affects every country on the planet. Putin may make a fool of Obama but he snaps to when the NYSE bell rings.
(Oh yeah! I forgot. NYSE is not in the code talkers translation manual. [There was NO dictionary, by the way.] NYSE = New York Stock Exchange.)

If someone says they are from Manhattan, it is kinda like saying they are from Iowa or Ottawa or South Chihuahua. Who cares?
It is a prideful thing - like "I survived Catholic school."

Manhattan Island? I have not seen those two words paired since we studied Peter Minuit in the 3rd-Grade.
Wow!!! Manhattan Island? I'll have to remember that.

"... most tangents..."

And, what, pray tell, can be wrong with that? It is the "off season" so everything is fair game.
Plus, it is a lot more fun than just listing the Canton facility's "mission statement" and pointing out what a farce it is.
Everyone already knows that.

#74 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:58 AM
Mark L. Ford, on 06 Apr 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:
>> But, I have never, ever heard anyone from Yorkville say they were from Manhattan.

Come to think of it, nobody from Harlem ever says that they grew up on Manhattan Island.... This thread must have set a record for most tangents veered off upon... we've talked about basketball, four USFL teams that might have gone to the NFL, the New York Brown Bombers, how Canadian football is different from the American version, Teddy "Ridiculous" Roosevelt, the new PFHOF Mission statement, the SEC, Gregg "Bountygate" Williams, gambling, Jim Thorpe, color TV, a visit to South Dakota, and New York geography... regarding the original topic, Damon Allen, either he didn't try for a a multi-million dollar contract because he was content with less than NFL rookie pay, never earning an annual salary of more 150,000 Canadian dollars-- or his superstardom was greatly exaggerated by Sports Illustrated. I tend to think it's the latter.
Allen was making $300K even at age 42. You're way, way off on that one. CFL starting QBs have long been paid pretty well.

#75 BD Sullivan
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:02 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 05 Apr 2014 - 8:23 PM, said:
BD Sullivan

Incorrect: Effa Manley, co-owner of the Newark Bears is a full-fledged member of the Baseball HOF:
http://baseballhall....hof/manley-effa

Unfortunately, this is correct.

This woman is the one referenced on the very first page of this thread.

That entire "selection" process was a sham and anyone who participated in it should hang their heads in shame. "Letters to the Editor" boxes across the nation were filled with protests - all, of course, to no avail.

In the opinions of some, this travesty made a mockery of everything Cooperstown is hoped to represent but, like so many other short-comings of the various halls of fame, it will soon be covered with the manure of purification.

Too bad !!! Most of the other Negro Leaguers of that class were truly deserving enshrines.

From Page 1

Baseball lost all credibility with its Negro Leagues' catch-up nonsense a few years back.

They created a "committee," allocated a few million for R&D, gave the chair to a white ex-comm, (That's c-o-m-m, not c-o-n.) and waited for results.

After one major party at a posh resort, the committee members dispersed.

Each was given some of the R&D money and it was agreed that each would put forth the candidate of their choice and all would approve.

The result: In one case, the wife of an owner known for sleeping with the teams' players is now a bona fide hall of fame membress. (Her husband once traded a player enjoying her favors for a used bat and a pair of sliding pads - also used but no one knows by whom.)
Actually, the biggest complaint in this case was not the "catch-up" philosophy the committee decided upon, but the omission of one former player: Buck O'Neil, who had become an icon since Ken Burns' 1994 "Baseball" documentary. Of course, most of the people championing his cause likely had no clue who he was prior to 1994, but since he was such a gracious individual, that alone seemed to drive their push to get him enshrined.

Back to football: NBC's push for the AFL in color in 1965 was used by New York-area appliance stores as a way to push the sale of color TV's--which obviously would benefit the NBC/RCA bottom line. Of course, most of the color TV's for sale were still pricey, costing the 2014 equivalent of about $3,000.

#76 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 01:53 PM
BD Sullivan
"... Buck O'Neil..."

You are sooo right. In fact, the thrust of the mail sent to various SEs was exactly that.
What a farce the entire process was in overlooking the single most deserving individual on the planet. I hesitated to name Buck - fearful of creating another tangent.

The baseball complex right up the road in Sarasota is named for him and I had the good fortune to be invited to a memorial service held there shortly after his death.

I must also admit that I was one of the letter writers - mine was to the "Kansas City Star" (I think.) and I cc'd the Cooperstown facility and a few other individuals.
Somewhere, I have the reply I received from the Sports Editor of the Star.
Not word-for-word, but she said: We (the Star) have written enough about Buck O'Neil and do not plan any additional comment.

Well, to steal a line from old Winnie: That is the type of journalism up with which we should not put.

There's a gal that deserves the Zeke Mowatt award for penal colonization.

"... color TV's..."

I believe the organization in the van of the appliance store push was E.J. Korvette?
(I could be wrong.)
The flagship of their fleet was a land-based facility on Manhattan Island.

(My apologies for any misspelling...)

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#77 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 06:39 PM
>>> Allen was making $300K even at age 42. You're way, way off on that one. CFL starting QBs have long been paid pretty well. <<<

I went by this figure in a 2005 San Diego newspaper story subtitled "At 42, Damon Allen playing as well as he ever has".
http://www.utsandieg..._1s16damon.html

Perhaps the reporter was way, way off as well. Can't blame it on the exchange rate, since the American dollar and Canadian dollar generally run close together, with Canadian dollar sometimes worth slightly more. Still, the statement that he would prefer to be a starter in Canada, rather than a backup in the NFL for more money, suggests that he was aware that he was Hamilton-worthy but not Canton-worthy.

#78 Teo
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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:04 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 06 Apr 2014 - 6:39 PM, said:
>>> Allen was making $300K even at age 42. You're way, way off on that one. CFL starting QBs have long been paid pretty well.

I went by this figure in a 2005 San Diego newspaper story subtitled "At 42, Damon Allen playing as well as he ever has".

http://www.utsandieg..._1s16damon.html

Perhaps the reporter was way, way off as well. Can't blame it on the exchange rate, since the American dollar and Canadian dollar generally run close together, with Canadian dollar sometimes worth slightly more. Still, the statement that he would prefer to be a starter in Canada, rather than a backup in the NFL for more money, suggests that he was aware that he was Hamilton-worthy but not Canton-worthy.

I recall that Anthony Calvillo was offered an NFL contract by the Vikings in his CFL prime with Montreal, but he turned down because he would've been always a third-stringer in the NFL instead of an All-Star in Canada. Still, I recall that he would've earned more in the NFL as a backup.

#79 luckyshow
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:50 AM
Putin made a fool of the entire world. The UN, NATO, modern civilization. But exactly what do you suppose anyone could have done. A Putin, a megalomaniacal psychopath and sociopath, a deranged admirer of Czars and probably Stalin and Rasputin, would only be stopped by a war. Which would be enormous and devastating, either very long and drawn out or very quick in a tit for tat thermonuclear mess. Everyone was fooled, no one was fooled. Stop blaming Obama unless you have a solution he might have used.

Enough of that, all politicians are now on the take, or pawns. Useless sycophants and ciphers.

Manhattan doesn't need the word "island" after it, never has, not even when Peter Minuet was around. Few say they are from Manhattan for various reasons, but a large one is that at one time, New York City was just Manhattan and an increasingly growing amount of The Bronx. It was the city, the City of New York. Wall Street was a wall at one time long ago. Canal Street was a channeled stream, a sort of canal, though I forget if it actually bisected the island or had no outlet on the East River side. It became a sort of fetid sewer. Not sure why Yorkville was named such. Duke of York. The last Czech butcher closed a year or so ago, Paprika Weiss closed in the 1990s. I think most people in Queens actually say what neighborhood they live in. Flushing, Corona, Long Island City, Astoria, et al. Interesting that no section of Manhattan is called Bloomingdale.

We once had a Dumont TV, with a circular screen and the knob was a continuous dial, with a crank and no clicks. And a channel 1. You could get some FM after channel 6. It had no UHF.

125th Street is sort of an earthquake fault. There are Indian caves in Triton Park. There is a part of Manhattan which is not on any island. E.J. Korvette= Eight Jewish Korean Vets. Across from Gimbels.

Only one football team plays on the island of Manhattan now. (There, I've mentioned football)

#80 luckyshow
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:56 AM
By the way, that old Dumont TV was pretty small, almost a portable. Not heavy at all. 14" screen?

Page 4 of 5

oldecapecod 11

Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM

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#81 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:23 AM
luckyshow

"... Putin..."
Just be thankful he does not want an NFL franchise.

"... Peter Minuet..."
Was he a dancer? The fellow referenced was Peter M-I-N-U-I-T - a Walloon(?)

"... Queens..."
Most people from Queens do not admit it. You confuse them with Brooklynites unless you mean the group(s) from Greenwich?

"... Canal Street..."
a drainage ditch - no more, no less

"... Bloomingdale..."
New Jersey and Florida and perhaps others? Why a neighborhood in New York when Rowland's legacy was and is far greater than either of the B brothers?

"... Dumont..."
Did not everyone start with a Dumont TV?
We had an RCA radio which rivaled a refrigerator (Whoops! Ice Box) for size. The television was equally as large and had a "screen" about the size of a bread-and-butter plate. I don't remember the dial. I was not allowed to touch it.

"... Triton Park..."
Do you mean Fort Tryon Park?
There are also a couple of caves in the northwest corner of Central Park - that vast expanse of beauty and culture that divides east and west from 59th Street at the south to 110th Street at the north. There are towns in America (US version) that are smaller.
And, to keep on point, there are three or four FOOTBALL fields in the meadow area overlooked by Belvedere Castle.

"... E.J. Korvette..."
This chain was founded before the outbreak of the police action in Korea. The founder may have been a WWII vet - hardly Korea. The was never a store "across from Gimble's." Gimble's was on 34th Street - in the shadow of what was and remains Macy's. And, so that no one confuses the founder of that chain with Putin, the red star that is its logo represents a tattoo - no; not the military or musical version but the Polynesian type popular among FOOTBALL players and other athletes of today.

#82 luckyshow
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:25 AM
Yeah, Tryon. Sometimes I should go to sleep methinks.

Bloomgdale does not refer to the store. Broadway was once known as Bloomingdale's Road and a big chunk of the west side was Bloomingdale's Farm. Bloomingdale's Insane Asylum was where Columbia University was moved to and is today. Way back, even before when the Elysian Fields in Hoboken was the place to go for a park experience, before Central Park.
"north of 23rd Street and west of what is now Eighth Avenue was known as Bloomingdale and consisted of farms and villages along a road (regularized in 1703) known as the Bloomingdale Road. Bloomingdale Road was renamed The Boulevard in 1868"
"Bloomingdale was a large producer of tobacco at the beginning of the eighteenth century" "by the end of the Civil War, the area once named Bloemendal, or 'valley of flowers' was assimilated into New York City." That was Dutch. A small playground does exist named Bloomingdale, on Broadway on 104th. I think it is the vest pocket park with the memorial to the Strauss couple who lost their lives on the Titanic (and in continuing the department store theme, founded Abraham & Strauss, A&S...

Yes, I played football on the street. But where organized (sort of) football takes place is up at Baker's Field where Columbia plays, near Marble Hill. The area is, or was, known as Kingsbridge and is the northernmost part of Manhattan (which does continue on the other side, where Manhattan is on the mainland.
http://cooperator.co...daal/Page1.html

I meet people from Queens often. Some say they are in Queens, others use local names like Bayside, Elmont (which straddles the border), Ridgewood (a chunk of which requested and were allowed to change from Bushwick, Brooklyn, to Queens, in the 1920s), RArely is Blissville used anymore.

I may like to believe the myth about Korvettes and still say it was just north of Gimbels, but it was a while ago...but I never mix up Brooklyn with anything else. Even when part of it is called East New York, Canarsie or Gravesend.

The TV may have been called a Stromberg-Carlson. The size may be small in my memory, but the crank was real..

#83 luckyshow
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:29 AM
"possibly a reference to "Bloemendael," the name of a small village in the flower-growing region near Haarlem in the Netherlands"

#84 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:29 PM
luckyshow
"... Straus..."

You have a wealth of information at your fingertips and my head is spinning trying to remember all these facts.

I am quite sure the Straus family did not found A&S - they bought it and replaced another name with "Straus."
Isadore and Ida were, indeed, among those lost in the Titanic sinking and were better known as the "owners" of Macy's rather than A&S.
They gave much and left much to the City of New York and much to the City of Brooklyn too before it was absorbed by New York.

That was a NFL-related action... merging with the AFL - its next biggest competitor.

We must be boring others to tears so I am going to say: you win.
Pick up the marbles. I will gladly duel again on other topics. New York is too close to my heart.

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#85 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:22 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 06 Apr 2014 - 6:39 PM, said:
>>> Allen was making $300K even at age 42. You're way, way off on that one. CFL starting QBs have long been paid pretty well. <<<

I went by this figure in a 2005 San Diego newspaper story subtitled "At 42, Damon Allen playing as well as he ever has".
http://www.utsandieg..._1s16damon.html

Perhaps the reporter was way, way off as well. Can't blame it on the exchange rate, since the American dollar and Canadian dollar generally run close together, with Canadian dollar sometimes worth slightly more. Still, the statement that he would prefer to be a starter in Canada, rather than a backup in the NFL for more money, suggests that he was aware that he was Hamilton-worthy but not Canton-worthy.

No question, Allen would have known his chances of success in the NFL were very limited. More than one CFL starter threw away his career by pursuing the more lucrative (per year, at least) NFL backup job. They'd come back here a year or two later to find their seat at the table had been given to someone else.

But the San Diego refers only to Allen's salary that year as $150K. A Winnipeg Free Press article has Allen at $300K that year, one of the lowest paid starting QB's that year. Certainly when Allen played here (Vancouver) he made that much or more, and the same in most of his other stops post 1998 or so.

Maybe the writer was factoring in our far more generous tax structure? Oh wait....
#86 luckyshow
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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:16 AM
I hadn't known we'd had a competition. I hate I forget details like Straus' name and correct department store name.

There is a further connection. It either shows how New York is just a large small town, or that the "1%" was always the 1%, in a sense. The only surviving building from the Bloomingdale Mental Asylum where Columbia U. is now, is on campus, called La Maison Francais. It was built in 1880s as a donation by R.H. Macy, the founder of Macy's Department stores.

There is a second structure related to the old asylum, though from a related institution. It is a classic columned portico structure facing 110th in the St. John the Divine property, just south of the Cathedral. I think it still remains after the new constructions there. Last time I saw it, there were peacocks roaming about. St. John the Divine is a different sort of religious institution at such a significant magnificent landmark. Like a small Bohemian parish in a huge cathedral.

Even the football discussions inside this thread have veered from the original topic. Personally find these tangents interesting, even when I know nothing at all about the discussion beforehand.

I do have a clustered mess of randomized data insode my head, but I think I lost to you on technical points, I didn't even spell Straus correctly!

#87 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:16 PM
luckyshow
"...Straus..."
Were it a waltz, it would matter. Trading a polite parry, it did not.

#88 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:48 PM
Hmmm... stretching to find a point on the tangent that relates to football, let me just say. I am reminded of a Warner Bros. cartoon that was narrated by Elmer Fudd. Roger has always reminded me of Elmer.

#89 ohiofootball
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:31 PM
According to the 1963 Pro Football Hall of Fame program....it's the "Pro Football Hall of Fame", but listen to the HOF enshrines talk and they call it the NFL HOF. Either way it's a garbage HOF. If you are going to promote & preserve professional football lets start in 1903 with the Massillon Tigers and move forward where it all began in Ohio. Not to take anything way from the teams pre '03 in PA.

#90 JWL
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Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:44 AM
NWebster, on 02 Apr 2014 - 6:57 PM, said:
Speaking of the USFL, had Donald Trump been less pig headed - yes thats a BIG IF. Could 4-5 USFL teams have merged into the NFL and would Herschel Walker be in the Hall. The Invaders, Stars, Generals, Gamblers and Express could have been candidates. So the Oilers then flee Houston a few years early, the Raiders flee LA a few years early and the Invaders and Generals and Stars relocate.

It would have been nice if the Stars and Bulls were brought to the NFL. The Bulls had great uniforms. Those outfits are in my top five pro football uniforms of all time.

Baltimore was without a National Football League at the time. As the best USFL team, they would have been the perfect team to bring aboard.

The Renegades, Bandits, Showboats, and Stallions also had really good uniforms. The Express and Generals had very boring uniforms.

The Baltimore Stars could have joined the AFC Central. The Jacksonville Bulls could have been placed in the NFC West with the Falcons who would have been a natural rival.

By the way, the next NFL realignment needs to see the Jaguars, Buccaneers and Falcons in the same division. It will somewhat help with those teams' attendance issues.

#91 JWL
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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:00 AM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 03 Apr 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:
I wasn't yet a fan of football at the time, but my sense from what I've read is that the NFL/USFL situation (from the NFL's perspective at least) was out and out total war. The USFL went after their players, something the AFL and AAFC didn't do, so the degree of animosity was much higher. So was there really any chance at all that the NFL would have brought in any of their teams?

There was not much of a chance for the reason you noted. It would have been great, though. I was seven when the final USFL game was played. I liked the USFL as much as I liked the NFL. I was too young to have a good understanding of the sport, but I liked watching. I was old enough to understand the USFL was not as big as the NFL and wasn't treated as being big by television and the media. I can recall watching a Gold home game and seeing a ton of empty seats. During that time period, I didn't see empty seats at Broncos games.

#92 JWL
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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:02 AM
Also, I am still waiting for the Jets to ever put together a regular season as strong as the one put together by the Generals when they went 14-4.

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