Better HC, Forrest Gregg or Bobby Ross?

[74_75_78_79_]

Both have four winning seasons (at least one winner with multiple teams) and one SB-appearance each to their credit. Who's better and why?

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

My vote is for Bobby Ross. In San Diego, no losing seasons. Seems to have overachieved generally, given that they never really had it together on offense. Natrone Means had that one season where he was healthy, and they went to the Super Bowl. In Detroit, the yardstick is completely different. If you believe Barry Sanders -- and it's hard not to -- the team was designed to aim for 10-6. They constantly let their foundation players walk. Just terrible management decisions all through that decade. Bobby had the brilliant idea of trying to teach Barry Sanders how to run the football. "Hey Barry, we're going to give you a fullback." At least he had the good sense to turf that one after two games. Then Barry retires, and Herman Moore gets hurt, and they were just completely screwed. That they finished 8-8 is like a Super Bowl win, with that roster.

Gregg seems like a guy who was limited by his General Managers to get and keep good players. His time with the Packers (where he was also GM) seems chaotic, on paper anyway. In four seasons he only had like three guys who were starters the whole time -- RG Ron Hallstrom, DE Alphonso Carreker, and CB Mark Lee. Three guys who never made so much as a Pro Bowl between them. And the team just got worse every year.

[7DnBrnc53]

Gregg seems like a guy who was limited by his General Managers to get and keep good players. His time with the Packers (where he was also GM) seems chaotic, on paper anyway. In four seasons he only had like three guys who were starters the whole time -- RG Ron Hallstrom, DE Alphonso Carreker, and CB Mark Lee. Three guys who never made so much as a Pro Bowl between them. And the team just got worse every year.

Didn't he draft Carreker over Boomer Esiason despite what one of his scouts said? I heard that Green Bay's southern scout said that Carreker couldn't play.

[74_75_78_79_]

Forrest was a heckuva HC. Can't help but to respect his toughness along with being from the School of Vince. Yes his NFL HC-ing tenure ended with he being stuck-in-mediocrity up in Green Bay, but he made Cleveland a winner again in just his second year ('76) - who knows what he could have done if he stayed on longer - then made Cincy into a SB team, also in his 2nd year there.

However, I lean toward Bobby on this one as well. Forever will be an historically underrated coach. Made Chargers into a winner instantly in his first season, '92, along with a shutout playoff win to boot! Yes, it could be said that Henning (like Prothro before with Coryell) 'set the table' for Bobby during those losing-yet-respectable seasons, but still. And then to outcoach a.. Bill Cowher, and on the road, vs an apparently more-talented team...quite a feather in his cap!

I guess that Charger squad not being as 'sexy' as, say, the Coryell ones along with getting blown-out in SBXXIX (as if doing so vs that San Fran team is a felony) is what could make many dismiss him as a HC. Quite frankly, with exception to the '79 installment, I'll take "dull" and "boring" more-balanced '94 over any of the other Coryell Charger teams.

It is his time in Detroit w/out #20 (and under that horrid management) that may be Ross's best work yet. Makes you wonder how the '90s Lions would have been had he been at helm instead. And of course if Sanders, like a normal RB (who wants to win a title), accepts having a FB with him in the backfield.

[BD Sullivan]

Gregg's "turnaround" with the Browns in 1976 has always been overrated since the nine victories came against teams with a collective record of 43-83. The only team that had a winning record among those nine wins was the 10-4 Steelers in the Turkey Jones/Terry Bradshaw "piledriver" game--and that was the loss that resulted in Pittsburgh hitting rock bottom with a 1-4 record. From then on, their incredible defensive run nearly helped get them to the Super Bowl.

Gregg's main problem (at least during his Browns tenure) was his willingness to give up on players after one mistake. Rookie Mike Pruitt fumbled in Game 2 (I think) and then was put in storage until Sam Rutigliano arrived. To be fair, he doesn't deserve too much criticism for the collapse that got him fired in '77--considering it coincided with Sipe getting knocked out for the year. Still, having only Dave Mays to back him up proved to be a disaster.

[conace21]

I didn't think Bobby scrapped the fullback after two bad rushing games from Sanders in the first two weeks, so I checked PFR. Tommy Vardell started 10 games that year, and Cory Schlesinger started 2, so Sanders started twelve games with a fullback. Two games began with 2 TE's, and two with three WR's. (Tommy Boyd and Glyn Milburn each started one game.)

[Citizen]

Didn't he draft Carreker over Boomer Esiason despite what one of his scouts said? I heard that Green Bay's southern scout said that Carreker couldn't play.

From a Cliff Christl interview with Dick Corrick, the Packers' director of player personnel from 1977-87:

"We had Boomer Esiason at the top of our board among the quarterbacks and at the level we were picking. But Forrest walked in and said, 'If you think I’m going to take a quarterback when we’re the 26th team in defense or whatever it was, they'll run me out of town if I don't draft a defensive player.' I said, 'Geez, coach, we don't have a defensive player worthy of that pick.' He said, 'Find one.'"

Gregg showed some coaching ability in Cleveland and Cincinnati, but he continually shot himself in the foot during his four years in Green Bay. He went out of his way to rid the team of players who had been coached by his predecessor, Bart Starr, and soon Gregg's team was sorely lacking in veteran leadership. He whipped his club into a frenzy twice a year to face the far superior Bears, at the expense of preparing them for games they actually had a chance to win. He tried the Lombardi tough-guy approach, but being a taskmaster does little good with a team as talent-poor as the Packers were in those years. Finally, he showed little inclination to control or weed out the numerous bad characters on his teams, resulting in a big black eye on the Packers organization that it took years to remove.

[Bryan]

Gregg had quite the coaching staff in Cincinnati...Hank Bullough and Dick LeBeau on defense, Bruce Coslet, Jim McNally & Lindy Infante on offense.

Bobby Ross was a central figure and sympathetic character in the "Saturday's Children" book, which was about the 1971 Rice University football team. Ross was a young defensive assistant who had to deal with the team's prima donna best player (Rodrigo Barnes) and also was the scapegoat of infamous head coach Bill Peterson, who would yell at Ross about everything. An interesting read about a dysfunctional team led by a complete moron in Bill Peterson. Larry Peccatiello was the defensive coordinator who mentored Ross. Former Rice star QB Tobin Rote was an offensive assistant, and he was the only offensive assistant who correctly disagreed with Peterson's schemes that featured a lot of downfield passes with limited pass protection. At one point Peterson threatened to beat up Rote, and Rote calmly took off his glasses, got out of his chair, and stood up. Anyways, the upshot of it all was that Rice was pretty terrible (3-7-1), and Peterson spent most of the year hanging out with Bud Adams and negotiating his 'lifetime contract' with the Houston Oilers.

[rhickok1109]

Gregg had quite the coaching staff in Cincinnati...Hank Bullough and Dick LeBeau on defense, Bruce Coslet, Jim McNally & Lindy Infante on offense.

Bobby Ross was a central figure and sympathetic character in the "Saturday's Children" book, which was about the 1971 Rice University football team. Ross was a young defensive assistant who had to deal with the team's prima donna best player (Rodrigo Barnes) and also was the scapegoat of infamous head coach Bill Peterson, who would yell at Ross about everything. An interesting read about a dysfunctional team led by a complete moron in Bill Peterson. Larry Peccatiello was the defensive coordinator who mentored Ross. Former Rice star QB Tobin Rote was an offensive assistant, and he was the only offensive assistant who correctly disagreed with Peterson's schemes that featured a lot of downfield passes with limited pass protection. At one point Peterson threatened to beat up Rote, and Rote calmly took off his glasses, got out of his chair, and stood up. Anyways, the upshot of it all was that Rice was pretty terrible (3-7-1), and Peterson spent most of the year hanging out with Bud Adams and negotiating his 'lifetime contract' with the Houston Oilers.

While Peterson had his faults, I think characterizing him as "a complete moron" is very unfair. He's credited with turning Florida State into a major power and, according to the very book you cite, " his forward thinking schemes were frequently copied by NFL coaches." He also has a rather impressive coaching tree that includes Joe Gibbs and Bill Parcells.

[Bryan]

Peterson comes off terribly in the book, and his 'tenure' at Rice was a disaster. He was more snake-oil salesman than strategist...not saying you can't be successful with that approach (especially in college football, where its almost required), but it leads me to believe that some of the subjective accolades bestowed on Peterson like "Father of the Collegiate Passing Game" are either baseless or were dependent on his assistant coaches. Peterson's mentoring of Parcells lasted all of 1 season (1970) before Peterson jumped to Rice.

I wouldn't say FSU was a "major power" under Peterson, they were more of a quaint Independent that rarely cracked the top 25, with their lone bowl win in 10 years being a Gator Bowl victory over a 6-4-1 Oklahoma squad. Tensi-to-Biletnikoff was the South's answer to Rhome-to-Twilley, but those Seminole teams did not have anywhere near the talent that Bobby Bowden would assemble. Peterson's final FSU recruiting class in 1970 would produce an 0-11 ledger in 1973...not exactly setting the table for a program. Peterson's college coaching record was 65-49-12, which combined with his NFL record of 1-18, you get nearly an exact .500 coach (66-67-12).