HOF - how do we tell difference between players and coaches?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I want to count HOFers by decade (not sure how yet - something like the decade they played most of their career in would probably be more accurate than something like taking the 1st year of their career which would be easier) and it reminded me that sometimes I'm not sure whether to count certain HOF members as players or coaches. For my purpose, I just wanted players but in cases like George Halas and Guy Chamberlain (just 2 of several cases) - should they be included in the player list? I checked this link and it was some help, but didn't definitively answer the question. I have been told on another board that Halas wasn't a HOF player, I'm just not convinced the HOF agrees. Thanks for any help.

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of ... positions/

[JWL]

It can be tricky. Dick LeBeau is supposedly in as a player but sorta kinda got in really as an assistant coach. If he did not get into coaching, would he be in the Hall of Fame? From what I've heard and read and who I've talked to, the answer is NO.

Not that I am some sort of expert, but I would not have even voted for LeBeau for the Hall of Very Good.

HOG (Hall of Good)? Probably.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks for the reply. I'll err on the side of counting anyone denoted as "a Player and Coach" as a player then. Halas is a similar case - he was in the inaugural class, but its hard to think most of that isn't due to his involvemnet in starting the league and coaching success, but his playing record is cited.

[JuggernautJ]

I'll never forget the look on my father's face when I mentioned Walt Kielsling was in the Hall of Fame.
He just sat there... stunned for a few seconds and then repeated it to make sure he had understood
what I had said.
"Walt Kiesling... is in... the Hall of Fame??"
And this is from a man who lived his first 35 years in Pittsburgh.

I think the first several classes (or perhaps just the first two) had different criteria (certainly from today's) and an "unfair" advantage for "Lifelong contribution" to the sport.
In a way Kiesling is the first Le Beau (someone who got in for the body of their work not exceptional achievement in any one phase).
Is Walt Kiesling a Hall of Fame Coach? Um, no. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/c ... iesWa0.htm
Guard? Maybe? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... esWa20.htm
But in 1966 someone thought his overall contributions merited enshrinement.

[Moran]

Would Ray Flaherty fall into this discussion?

[TanksAndSpartans]

Would Ray Flaherty fall into this discussion?

Yep, Flaherty is in there. Here is the list:

Jimmy Conzelman (QB) # 1920-1929 and coached: 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48
Earl (Curly) Lambeau (HB) # 1919-1929 and coached: 1919-1953
Guy Chamberlin (End) # 1919-1928 and coached: 1922-1927
Ray Flaherty (End) # 1926-1929, 1931-1935 and coached: 1936-1949
George Halas (End) # 1920-1928 and coached: 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67
Steve Owen (T) # 1924-1931, 1933 and coached: 1930-1953

Conzelman, Lambeau, Chamberlin, and Halas all coached for most/all of their playing careers, Owen started coaching at the end, and Flaherty coached afterwards.

Interestingly,

Fritz Pollard (HB) 1919-1926 is not recognized as a coach (Intentionally to show he got in as a player maybe?)

and

Walt Kiesling (G) 1926-1938 is also only recognized as a player. (He may have gotten in despite his coaching )

Another interesting one to add to the mix is Earle (Greasy) Neale 1941-1950. He was actually one of the top Ends of the pre NFL era and even played some into the 20s (Ironton Tanks) often under assumed names because he always seemed to be coaching, playing baseball, etc.

In terms of what the HOF intended (agree or not), I'm thinking its more clear than I thought it was when I first posted. We have 6 who are recognized as both and others like Landry, Kiesling, Dutch Clark who are only recognized for one. (Of course I could be reading too much into this one web page because when you go to the main HOF page for Tom Landry as an example, it does mention he played.)

[JuggernautJ]

Walt Kiesling (G) 1926-1938 is also only recognized as a player. (He may have gotten in despite his coaching )

No to be argumentative but Walt Kiesling's Hall of Fame Bio clearly lists him as "Guard; Coach" and states his service as 34 years.
While his stats include only games played (as a player) his synopsis includes "LED STEELERS TO FIRST WINNING SEASON, 1942."
Is there something I am missing?

http://www.profootballhof.com/players/walt-kiesling/

[TanksAndSpartans]

Walt Kiesling (G) 1926-1938 is also only recognized as a player. (He may have gotten in despite his coaching )

No to be argumentative but Walt Kiesling's Hall of Fame Bio clearly lists him as "Guard; Coach" and states his service as 34 years.
While his stats include only games played (as a player) his synopsis includes "LED STEELERS TO FIRST WINNING SEASON, 1942."
Is there something I am missing?

http://www.profootballhof.com/players/walt-kiesling/

I'm glad to continue the discussion. Like I said, Tom Landry's bio on his main page clearly mentions him as a player the same way you said Kiesling's bio clearly mentions him as a coach. I'm just saying, if you forget the bio pages and just go by this link: http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of ... positions/, then what we have is 6 people recognized as players and coaches while others who both played and coached are only recognized as one or the other. Is it possible I'm reading too much into it? Of course. But it does look like either it was done with intent or it was done by someone who forgot that a bunch of people both played and coached or maybe a combination of both.

I think the example of Kiesling you brought up is a good one. He was 25 games under .500 as a coach, so I can see why someone may not have wanted to put him in the coaches group.

It may not be perfect, but at least I can say I went to a page on the HOF web site and X number of people were listed as players. It seems at least slightly better than listing everyone who has a bio that mentioned they played as a player.

[JuggernautJ]

Ahh I see where you're coming from.

My interpretation is coming from printed material as well as the Bio Pages of the website.
For instance, in the 2000 NFL Insider Magazine for the Hall of Fame game it lists all the Hall of Famers and includes biographies which are identical (word for word as far as I can tell) to the online biographies.
That NFL magazine lists Landry as "Coach", Halas as "Founder, Owner, Coach" and Kiesling as "Guard; Coach."

Funny.
I was reading earlier about problems determining Anglo Saxon Kings from the various versions of the Anglo Saxon Chronicles.
This shouldn't be that difficult.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I know! So many inconsistencies. Sounds like Halas shouldn't be counted as a player then. Unless its possible someone wanted him included retroactively - he did make the 20s all-decade team.

What about the other five? Any reason you see based on their bio not to count them as players?

Conzelman?
Lambeau?
Chamberlin?
Flaherty?
Owen?