"Three Studs on the O-Line" article

[Veeshik_ya]

Stumbled across this article entitled 'Introducing the "Three Studs on the O-Line Rule"'.

https://jimkanicki.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... line-rule/

It's a blog, and the writer's postulate is: If you assemble an offensive line with three or more pro-bowlers, you’re likely going to a Super Bowl and probably more than one. Then he goes on to list multiple offensive lines throughout history.

Maybe it isn't the best article I ever read, but it's an interesting exercise nonetheless.

The PFRA would be well served by putting some some material like this together for general public (sorry John) consumption. It would promote the knowledge of its members and, if done well, attract members.

[Andy Piascik]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the link. I wonder if the 1959 Browns had the best all-time collection of offensive linemen. I don't mean that their OL that season was the best but that top to bottom, for the breadth of their collective careers, it was the best assemblage of offensive linemen to appear on a roster at one time. Some of their credentials are mentioned in the article. Excluding Chuck Noll and Willie Davis, who were OG and OT respectively at the time, there were three HOFers (Groza, Hickerson, McCormack) and those three plus Schafrath, Wooten, Hunter and Smith (who I would argue was the best of the lot) all made at least one Pro Bowl. All told, 35 PB appearances for the seven, plus twenty-something first team all-pro selections and many more second team and all-conference selections.

[Veeshik_ya]

Glad you enjoyed it. I thought it was interesting.

That said, the problem with topics like this, or the focus on players and their awards/merits/achievements in general is a chicken and egg type of thing: was the player really a pro bowler or did the teams' success create it?

This will not be a popular opinion in this forum, most of whose members' appear to view success and failure in the NFL as a product of the collected efforts of the players. Technically, that's true of course. But organizations and coaches win games. Rare is the player who transcends his team. There are a few studs out there who dominate here, get on a plane, sign a new W-2, and dominate there. But it's rare. Time and time again we see a guy switch teams then drift into averageness if not obscurity.

It's no coincidence that the most successful teams have the most pro bowlers. But its a product of the voters' "they went 13-3, they must be good" mentality, or based on voters' view of player statistics whose genesis was team success. Then you have Lombardi come in, and turn a bunch of (supposed) losers into winners. Bart Starr would be a footnote in history if not for Lombardi. Now he's one of the best. Just an example.

For the most part, I close my eyes to individual player achievements and awards. Most of it is nonsense.

[Bryan]

That said, the problem with topics like this, or the focus on players and their awards/merits/achievements in general is a chicken and egg type of thing: was the player really a pro bowler or did the teams' success create it?

I wondered that as well, especially considering the pro bowl rubber-stamping of OLs in general. I've watched some games of the 1970's Cowboys, and so much of their offensive firepower was Staubach's playmaking ability. I wasn't as impressed with their OL as I thought I would have been...maybe it was just me. Guys like Niland and Neely seemed to be solid pros who were mobile and good run blockers, but were they really annual All-Pro guys?

As for the article itself, I would guess that if you had three pro bowlers at any position grouping, you'd be a pretty good team. If you looked at the 16 greatest Super Bowl era champions, you'd probably find that they have some of the greatest defensive lines as well. Surprised there was no mention of the late 60's-early 70's Chiefs, especially when the author mentions the Purple People Eaters as the greatest DL ever.

[Veeshik_ya]

As for the article itself, I would guess that if you had three pro bowlers at any position grouping, you'd be a pretty good team. If you looked at the 16 greatest Super Bowl era champions, you'd probably find that they have some of the greatest defensive lines as well.

Right, and it begs the reverse question: Why are they Pro Bowlers? Players on a 13-3 team in the playoffs on a *sure* track to the SB are going to get the votes.

Using the 90s Cowboys as an example, people who judge offensive line play (not me, I know very little about the nuances of NFL position play; I purposely ignore it because I don't think it helps you understand why teams win games) have written at length about how, individually, the Cowboys O-Line was average. But collectively, they dominated games like no line I've ever seen.

[Hail Casares]

As for the article itself, I would guess that if you had three pro bowlers at any position grouping, you'd be a pretty good team. If you looked at the 16 greatest Super Bowl era champions, you'd probably find that they have some of the greatest defensive lines as well.

Right, and it begs the reverse question: Why are they Pro Bowlers? Players on a 13-3 team in the playoffs on a *sure* track to the SB are going to get the votes.

Using the 90s Cowboys as an example, people who judge offensive line play (not me, I know very little about the nuances of NFL position play; I purposely ignore it because I don't think it helps you understand why teams win games) have written at length about how, individually, the Cowboys O-Line was average. But collectively, they dominated games like no line I've ever seen.

Umm what?

[Veeshik_ya]

As for the article itself, I would guess that if you had three pro bowlers at any position grouping, you'd be a pretty good team. If you looked at the 16 greatest Super Bowl era champions, you'd probably find that they have some of the greatest defensive lines as well.

Right, and it begs the reverse question: Why are they Pro Bowlers? Players on a 13-3 team in the playoffs on a *sure* track to the SB are going to get the votes.

Using the 90s Cowboys as an example, people who judge offensive line play (not me, I know very little about the nuances of NFL position play; I purposely ignore it because I don't think it helps you understand why teams win games) have written at length about how, individually, the Cowboys O-Line was average. But collectively, they dominated games like no line I've ever seen.

Umm what?

Put another way, scheme is overrated and player stats are the product, not the cause.

The guy who wrote The Black Swann (Nic Taleb) once said, "Read last week's newspapers for a year and you will be cured of reading newspapers forever", or something like that.

I have a football spin on that: Bet NFL games on paper for a year vs. the pointspread and you will be cured forever of the things you think wins football games (and when I say win, talking straight up).

Hey, I said it'd be an unpopular opinion.

[Hail Casares]

Put another way, scheme is overrated and player stats are the product, not the cause.

Hey, I said it'd be an unpopular opinion.

What's your basis for this(the bolded)?

Your comment on stats doesn't make sense. Please expound....a lot.

[Saban1]

Interesting thread.

For long term greatness, I like the Cleveland Browns starting in 1946 through the 1950's and 1960's.

(1) AAFC years (1946-1949): Tackles were Lou Groza and Lou Rymkus. Groza is in the HOF and Rymkus probably should be (many think he belongs). Guards were Ed Ulinski, Lin Houston, Weldon Humble, and Bob Gaudio, with defensive guard Bill Willis sometimes playing OG. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. In 1946 and 1947, Mo Scarry, who was NFL All-Pro with the Rams in 1945, started at center for the Cleveland Browns.

Ernie Blandin was a solid left tackle for the Browns in 1946 and 1947. In 1948, the league forced Cleveland to send Blandin to Baltimore in the AAFC's plan for the haves to help the have nots. Coach Paul Brown told the AAFC Commissioner to tell Blandin that sending him to Baltimore was the Commissioner's idea and not his. Cleveland also lost Y.A. Tittle the same way.

(2) Early 1950's: Tackles were Groza and Rymkus (Rymkus through 1951). John Sandusky was a solid right tackle from 1952 through 1954, but was replaced by HOFer Mike McCormack in 1955. I have a tape of the 1956 Green Bay Packers and I focused on watching John Sandusky sometimes at right tackle (Sandusky was traded to Green Bay in 1956) and Sandusky always seemed to make his block. I think that he was underrated due to playing with so many other great players.

Guards started out were Lin Houston, Abe Gibron and Weldon Humble and were joined later by Chuck Noll, Hal Bradley, Herschel Forester with Guadio (1951) and Skibinski (1952) playing guard for one season. Center was HOFer Frank Gatski. This group with the Cleveland Browns won 6 Eastern Conference titles and 3 NFL Championships during those years (1950-55).

(3) Late 1950's and 1960 (1956-1960): Tackles Groza and McCormack with Dick Schafrath taking over at left tackle in 1959. Guards were Bradley and Forrester to start in 1956 with Jim Ray Smith taking over in 1957. Gene Hickerson joined the Browns in 1958 with Chuck Noll filling in sometimes before that and rookie Fred Robinson being one of the messenger guards in 1957. John Wooten joined the team in 1959. Art Hunter joined the Browns in 1956 and started at center for 3 years (1957-59). Hunter was traded to the Rams for John Morrow in 1960, and Morrow played well for Cleveland through part of 1966.

Those Cleveland teams in the late 1950's were tough, but didn't have the passing attack of the earlier Browns team that had guys like Otto Graham, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, and Dub Jones. They had great running with Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and their great offensive line, and a tough defense, and were unlucky to not win some more championships during those years, especially in 1958.

(4) 1961-69: Mostly Schafrath and Monte Clark at the tackles with Hickerson and Wooten (through 1967) for most of the 1960's. Jim Ray Smith started at left guard through 1962 and then was traded for Monte Clark. McCormack started at right tackle through 1962. Wooten was traded to Washington in 1968 and John DeMarie played well at left guard for a few years after that. John Morrow suffered a broken leg in a game in 1966 and did not play after that. Fred Hoaglin was a rookie in 1966 and took over at center for the injured Morrow. Hoaglin remained the starting center for the next few years for Cleveland. Cleveland won 4 Eastern Conference titles during those years (1961-1969) and the NFL Championship in 1964.

I would say that it was a pretty long stretch of great offensive line play for the Cleveland Browns. That is my opinion anyway.

[Veeshik_ya]

Nice work, Saban.