A football documentary to the depth of Ken Burns baseball wo
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:33 am
ARCHIVE
A football documentary to the depth of Ken Burns baseball would be a great thing
Started by lastcat3, Oct 30 2013 11:13 PM
Page 1 of 2
33 replies to this topic
#1 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:13 PM
A football documentary that had the depth that Ken Burns baseball documentary has would be a great thing. Even though I'm not a huge baseball fan by any means (probably watched a total of five or six innings during the entire playoffs this year) I still pop in an episode of the baseball documentary every now and then even though I have seen the whole thing several times.
I don't know. Maybe a football documentary wouldn't work quite as well as an eleven hour long baseball documentary would. But it would sure be fun to see a person like Ken Burns do one for football. One challenge I know there would be in making it is that football has changed a lot more since it's inception than baseball has and it is much harder to compare eras.
#2 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:20 PM
Good luck getting any footage from NFL Films--since the NFL owns it.
#3 Reaser
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,729 posts
Gender:Male
Location:WA
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:24 PM
I don't think the Super Bowl era needs to be done, and excluding it would allow for a more complete documentary on the pre-SB era, especially considering that any project including both, whoever is doing it would probably be inclined to blow right through the anything pre-60's, then spend a few minutes on the merger so they can get into the SB era.
5-10 hours on pre-1966 pro football, that's something I'de like. For the Ken Burns baseball documentary I (re)watch the first few 'innings' probably once a year.
#4 rhickok1109
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,282 posts
Gender:Male
Location:New Bedford, MA
Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:10 AM
lastcat3, on 30 Oct 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:
A football documentary that had the depth that Ken Burns baseball documentary has would be a great thing. Even though I'm not a huge baseball fan by any means (probably watched a total of five or six innings during the entire playoffs this year) I still pop in an episode of the baseball documentary every now and then even though I have seen the whole thing several times.
I don't know. Maybe a football documentary wouldn't work quite as well as an eleven hour long baseball documentary would. But it would sure be fun to see a person like Ken Burns do one for football. One challenge I know there would be in making it is that football has changed a lot more since it's inception than baseball has and it is much harder to compare eras.
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
#5 Bryan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
662 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:22 AM
rhickok1109, on 31 Oct 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
Agree with this. I really liked the Civil War documentary, mainly because I found Shelby Foote to be hugely entertaining (the other historians were kind of "meh").
I guess I am in the vast minority in that I did not like the Baseball documentary. Too much material to cover, too boring, too many still photos. I felt like I was somehow viewing an 20-cassette "books on tape" offering. I would be afraid that "Football" would be the same thing. It would be interesting if some unseen footage of football from the 1920's and 1930's was unearthed and featured prominently in the documentary, but I would guess that we'd get a still photo of Fritz Pollard along with Laurence Fishburne reading something written by Myron Cope. I'd much rather have John Facenda tell me that if you ran away from Gino Marchetti, he had the speed to track you down while seeing Marchetti tackle a ballcarrier from behind.
#6 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:38 AM
Bryan, on 31 Oct 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:
Agree with this. I really liked the Civil War documentary, mainly because I found Shelby Foote to be hugely entertaining (the other historians were kind of "meh").
I guess I am in the vast minority in that I did not like the Baseball documentary. Too much material to cover, too boring, too many still photos. I felt like I was somehow viewing an 20-cassette "books on tape" offering. I would be afraid that "Football" would be the same thing. It would be interesting if some unseen footage of football from the 1920's and 1930's was unearthed and featured prominently in the documentary, but I would guess that we'd get a still photo of Fritz Pollard along with Laurence Fishburne reading something written by Myron Cope. I'd much rather have John Facenda tell me that if you ran away from Gino Marchetti, he had the speed to track you down while seeing Marchetti tackle a ballcarrier from behind.
Not to mention Burns' using East Coast media people almost exclusively, while showing his extreme bias toward the Red Sox. We'd get more of that typical slant with a Burns football project.
#7 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:51 AM
Such a documentary would have to be about all football, not just professional, or it would mainly be of the NFL unless found footage is found of early AFLs, but would they really be of much interest in such a history? (Except Red Grange, of course)
By the nature of such histories, they must show either still photos or allow made up dramatic sections, which would be cheesy with football.
The history of the pros mixes with the amateur, and while this would mean a parallel NCAA documentary, that would be more appropriate. Much of the long history of football is neglected and forgotten now. How it evolved is interesting. And the various eras where it was considered too dangerous, too violent, speak to the current moment. So, such a documentary would not just start in 1919, or with the Cardinals, or with the first Yale player who was paid.. Jim Thorpe is far more interesting before he was in the NFL.
The complaint would be it is too Eastern centric because most of the history was eastern centric throwing in Chicago. In some ways, a Montreal college is central for a while.
Some aspects are more well known, such as Notre Dame's first use of the forward pass, the game against Army. And the later upset when Great LAkes defeated Navy and the head of the Navy decided who won. Well, that is probably not so well known. Or the 1894 or 1895 game in Springfield....
Or the early league in the New York area, the AFA.
Burns is the one with the money now, the power. He might not get NFL films to give up much, but then the NFL would be sleighted and they don't want that.
#8 TouchdownTimmy
Starter
Forum Visitors
326 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Maryland
Interests:Almost anything to do with football and sports on the field. I am not big into celebrity or social media. I just like watching and talking about sports. Football is my game and I have been following since I was five back in 1971.
Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:07 PM
Luckyshow, I agree it would have to be about all football.
I was hoping that Steve Sabol would live long enough to see the NFL's 100th anniversary. I thought that he would be able to put together a documentary that covered the league's history better than anyone. Now that he is gone I have no idea what to expect from the game's 100th anniversary film.
I liked some of "Baseball". I mean how can you not like Buck O'Neil. But overall I thought it was more legend than fact.
I do think that we will get a 100th anniversary series that may go 10 weeks or more and cover many areas.
#9 26554
Pro Bowler
Forum Visitors
1,163 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:40 PM
rhickok1109, on 31 Oct 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
Getting back to the main point of the thread, I wholeheartedly second the nomination of Coach Troup and would add John Turney and Nick Webster to the list.
#10 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:39 PM
[quote name="rhickok1109" post="38157" timestamp=" Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.[/quote]
uggh
#11 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:41 PM
A documentary on the early days of football is being produced as we speak.
#12 james
Veteran
PFRA Member
951 posts
Gender:Male
Location:San Antonio, Texas
Interests:Music(Iron Maiden & Heavy Metal), NY Giants, Otto Graham, Leo Nomellini, AAFC, Pro Football 1920's-1970's, collecting football cards, collecting and reading football books.
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:48 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 31 Oct 2013 - 7:41 PM, said:
A documentary on the early days of football is being produced as we speak.
Can you tell us more?
#13 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:54 PM
Ken Crippen announced here not long ago the Time Warner Sports of Ohio was filming a documentary on the early days of semi-pro and NFL football around Ohio, Illinois and Western New York.
#14 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:31 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 31 Oct 2013 - 7:54 PM, said:
Ken Crippen announced here not long ago the Time Warner Sports of Ohio was filming a documentary on the early days of semi-pro and NFL football around Ohio, Illinois and Western New York.
How detailed is it supposed to be. Is it only going to be a one or two hour long episode or will it rival the baseball documentary in length?
#15 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:01 PM
lastcat3, on 31 Oct 2013 - 8:31 PM, said:
How detailed is it supposed to be. Is it only going to be a one or two hour long episode or will it rival the baseball documentary in length?
It is going to be a five-episode series, covering some basics before 1869, but really starting in 1869 (Princeton v. Rutgers). The series would cover topics going through 1935. From the volume of questions they were going to ask me for each episode, my guess is that they will be hour episodes. I am not sure why they picked 1935 as the end point.
#16 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:14 PM
Ken Crippen, on 31 Oct 2013 - 9:01 PM, said:
It is going to be a five-episode series, covering some basics before 1869, but really starting in 1869 (Princeton v. Rutgers). The series would cover topics going through 1935. From the volume of questions they were going to ask me for each episode, my guess is that they will be hour episodes. I am not sure why they picked 1935 as the end point.
1935 would be about the time when the nfl started becoming a little more structured wasn't it? Before that wasn't it pretty much just a here today gone tomorrow type of league?
Are they going to be airing it on t.v.?
#17 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:23 PM
I'll watch. Its not Warren Sapp A Football Life, after all.
#18 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:57 AM
lastcat3, on 31 Oct 2013 - 9:14 PM, said:
1935 would be about the time when the nfl started becoming a little more structured wasn't it? Before that wasn't it pretty much just a here today gone tomorrow type of league?
Are they going to be airing it on t.v.?
They continued to get more structured from their inception. However, I do not see 1935 as being a landmark year in the NFL.
It will be on TV, but it will probably be local to Ohio and probably Western New York.
#19 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:05 AM
I am told that it will air in the fall of 2014. Several members here have been involved ... Chris Willis (Columbus Panhandles), John Steffenhagen (Rochester Jeffereson), etc.
#20 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:44 AM
Ken Crippen, on 01 Nov 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:
They continued to get more structured from their inception. However, I do not see 1935 as being a landmark year in the NFL.
It will be on TV, but it will probably be local to Ohio and probably Western New York.
Not sure the copyright implications, but it would be nice for PFRA members to be able to see it.
Page 1 of 2
oldecapecod 11
A football documentary to the depth of Ken Burns baseball would be a great thing
Started by lastcat3, Oct 30 2013 11:13 PM
Page 2 of 2
#21 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:48 AM
NWebster, on 01 Nov 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:
Not sure the copyright implications, but it would be nice for PFRA members to be able to see it.
Since PFRA members are involved both in front of the camera and behind the camera, I would hope that something could be worked out.
#22 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:02 AM
I don't know yet if it will be available for retail purchase. I will see what I can find out and post here.
#23 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:26 AM
1933 is where many almanacs, etc. start listing NFL Champions, so it's fairly close to that.
#24 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:17 PM
At one time, the 1934 NFL Championship Game, the Sneakers Game, was thought of in similar ways to the 1958 championship game later on. As influential in popularizing pro football in its day
1935 would also be just a couple of years after the size of the football was changed from the old blimp ball.
I believe the Orange Bowl began maybe the year before, so the bowl games were becoming plural.
The first Heisman Trophy handed out in 1935.
The NFL had their first real challenge opposition league.
So 1935 might be a good cut-off between the old drop kicking single wing no substitution days and the beginning of the more modern football days.
#25 ohiofootball
Rookie
PFRA Member
2 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:45 PM
I have team photos of early Canton, Ohio football teams such as 1907 Cohen Tigers, 1908 Cohen Tigers, 1909 Simpson Tigers, 1912 Canton Professionals, Canton Nut Shell Indians, plus other early Massillon, Shelby images if needed for this documentary.
#26 Bob Gill
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,200 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:57 PM
luckyshow, on 01 Nov 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:
The first Heisman Trophy handed out in 1935.
The NFL had their first real challenge opposition league.
Are you talking about the 1936-37 AFL? I'm very fond of that league, but it didn't pose anything like the challenge from the 1926 AFL.
#27 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:44 PM
No plans to make available to the general public.
#28 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:44 PM
Yes, 1936 AFL. I just mentioned it as maybe a reason 1935 was the cut off. I always thought the first AFL was mainly to get the NFL to allow a couple of teams to join in a merger of sorts. Not to form a permanent AFL.
What is not available to the public?
#29 Moran
Starter
PFRA Member
338 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:03 AM
Ken Burns was coming to our town to speak in a library series last year so I sent him a book about the town and added in some football teasers, like a copy of a program from a 1927 banquet for Hinkey Haines given by the MLB Yankees and the NFL Giants - http://hapmoran.org/wordpress/?p=81
I suggested he should consider a football documentary - I didn't get a reply but hearing him speak I think it would be like asking the Pope to do a film on Martin Luther - he reads the story of baseball like holy writ.
#30 Bryan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
662 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:20 PM
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
#31 SixtiesFan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
524 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:14 PM
Bryan, on 06 Nov 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
I've got "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith" laying around somewhere. As I recall, it featured Hugh McElhenny and Y.A. Tittle.
#32 SixtiesFan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
524 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:06 PM
Bryan, on 06 Nov 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
I just dug out my copy of "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith." It was written, produced, and directed by Steve Sabol with Sam Spence's music and John Facenda's narration. It came out in 1977, NFL Films as it was then.
It starts with a brief segment on Hugh McElhenny, then a longer one on Gale Sayers. Next comes Y.A. Tittle's pursuit of a championship. Tittle is compared to Captain Ahab.
Finally, George Halas is portrayed as the inventor of pro football. The film is about 23 minutes long, a lot of good footage.
#33 3243
Starter
Forum Visitors
301 posts
Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:03 AM
26554, on 31 Oct 2013 - 6:40 PM, said:
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
As a jazz fan myself, I also would have liked for more attention to be paid to non-black jazz musicians as well as to black ones, and I also feel the '60s and '70s were treated shabbily. Jazz fusion was very popular at one time, and there was also the loft jazz scene in New York City at the time. Also I would have appreciated the mentioning of the jazz avant garde of the period, which included more than free jazz, and such maverick figures as Sun Ra.
#34 nicefellow31
Starter
PFRA Member
344 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Neport News, Virginia
Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:46 AM
26554, on 31 Oct 2013 - 6:40 PM, said:
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
Getting back to the main point of the thread, I wholeheartedly second the nomination of Coach Troup and would add John Turney and Nick Webster to the list.
Well this is a little of topic but I agree 100% with your thoughts on Wynton Marsalis. He always come across like some type of "Jazz Snob" and I've often wondered if his attitude turned away potential fans.
Page 2 of 2
A football documentary to the depth of Ken Burns baseball would be a great thing
Started by lastcat3, Oct 30 2013 11:13 PM
Page 1 of 2
33 replies to this topic
#1 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:13 PM
A football documentary that had the depth that Ken Burns baseball documentary has would be a great thing. Even though I'm not a huge baseball fan by any means (probably watched a total of five or six innings during the entire playoffs this year) I still pop in an episode of the baseball documentary every now and then even though I have seen the whole thing several times.
I don't know. Maybe a football documentary wouldn't work quite as well as an eleven hour long baseball documentary would. But it would sure be fun to see a person like Ken Burns do one for football. One challenge I know there would be in making it is that football has changed a lot more since it's inception than baseball has and it is much harder to compare eras.
#2 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:20 PM
Good luck getting any footage from NFL Films--since the NFL owns it.
#3 Reaser
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,729 posts
Gender:Male
Location:WA
Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:24 PM
I don't think the Super Bowl era needs to be done, and excluding it would allow for a more complete documentary on the pre-SB era, especially considering that any project including both, whoever is doing it would probably be inclined to blow right through the anything pre-60's, then spend a few minutes on the merger so they can get into the SB era.
5-10 hours on pre-1966 pro football, that's something I'de like. For the Ken Burns baseball documentary I (re)watch the first few 'innings' probably once a year.
#4 rhickok1109
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,282 posts
Gender:Male
Location:New Bedford, MA
Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:10 AM
lastcat3, on 30 Oct 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:
A football documentary that had the depth that Ken Burns baseball documentary has would be a great thing. Even though I'm not a huge baseball fan by any means (probably watched a total of five or six innings during the entire playoffs this year) I still pop in an episode of the baseball documentary every now and then even though I have seen the whole thing several times.
I don't know. Maybe a football documentary wouldn't work quite as well as an eleven hour long baseball documentary would. But it would sure be fun to see a person like Ken Burns do one for football. One challenge I know there would be in making it is that football has changed a lot more since it's inception than baseball has and it is much harder to compare eras.
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
#5 Bryan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
662 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:22 AM
rhickok1109, on 31 Oct 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
Agree with this. I really liked the Civil War documentary, mainly because I found Shelby Foote to be hugely entertaining (the other historians were kind of "meh").
I guess I am in the vast minority in that I did not like the Baseball documentary. Too much material to cover, too boring, too many still photos. I felt like I was somehow viewing an 20-cassette "books on tape" offering. I would be afraid that "Football" would be the same thing. It would be interesting if some unseen footage of football from the 1920's and 1930's was unearthed and featured prominently in the documentary, but I would guess that we'd get a still photo of Fritz Pollard along with Laurence Fishburne reading something written by Myron Cope. I'd much rather have John Facenda tell me that if you ran away from Gino Marchetti, he had the speed to track you down while seeing Marchetti tackle a ballcarrier from behind.
#6 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:38 AM
Bryan, on 31 Oct 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:
Agree with this. I really liked the Civil War documentary, mainly because I found Shelby Foote to be hugely entertaining (the other historians were kind of "meh").
I guess I am in the vast minority in that I did not like the Baseball documentary. Too much material to cover, too boring, too many still photos. I felt like I was somehow viewing an 20-cassette "books on tape" offering. I would be afraid that "Football" would be the same thing. It would be interesting if some unseen footage of football from the 1920's and 1930's was unearthed and featured prominently in the documentary, but I would guess that we'd get a still photo of Fritz Pollard along with Laurence Fishburne reading something written by Myron Cope. I'd much rather have John Facenda tell me that if you ran away from Gino Marchetti, he had the speed to track you down while seeing Marchetti tackle a ballcarrier from behind.
Not to mention Burns' using East Coast media people almost exclusively, while showing his extreme bias toward the Red Sox. We'd get more of that typical slant with a Burns football project.
#7 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:51 AM
Such a documentary would have to be about all football, not just professional, or it would mainly be of the NFL unless found footage is found of early AFLs, but would they really be of much interest in such a history? (Except Red Grange, of course)
By the nature of such histories, they must show either still photos or allow made up dramatic sections, which would be cheesy with football.
The history of the pros mixes with the amateur, and while this would mean a parallel NCAA documentary, that would be more appropriate. Much of the long history of football is neglected and forgotten now. How it evolved is interesting. And the various eras where it was considered too dangerous, too violent, speak to the current moment. So, such a documentary would not just start in 1919, or with the Cardinals, or with the first Yale player who was paid.. Jim Thorpe is far more interesting before he was in the NFL.
The complaint would be it is too Eastern centric because most of the history was eastern centric throwing in Chicago. In some ways, a Montreal college is central for a while.
Some aspects are more well known, such as Notre Dame's first use of the forward pass, the game against Army. And the later upset when Great LAkes defeated Navy and the head of the Navy decided who won. Well, that is probably not so well known. Or the 1894 or 1895 game in Springfield....
Or the early league in the New York area, the AFA.
Burns is the one with the money now, the power. He might not get NFL films to give up much, but then the NFL would be sleighted and they don't want that.
#8 TouchdownTimmy
Starter
Forum Visitors
326 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Maryland
Interests:Almost anything to do with football and sports on the field. I am not big into celebrity or social media. I just like watching and talking about sports. Football is my game and I have been following since I was five back in 1971.
Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:07 PM
Luckyshow, I agree it would have to be about all football.
I was hoping that Steve Sabol would live long enough to see the NFL's 100th anniversary. I thought that he would be able to put together a documentary that covered the league's history better than anyone. Now that he is gone I have no idea what to expect from the game's 100th anniversary film.
I liked some of "Baseball". I mean how can you not like Buck O'Neil. But overall I thought it was more legend than fact.
I do think that we will get a 100th anniversary series that may go 10 weeks or more and cover many areas.
#9 26554
Pro Bowler
Forum Visitors
1,163 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:40 PM
rhickok1109, on 31 Oct 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:
Since Burns admittedly knows little or nothing about the subjects of his documentaries going in, a great deal depends on which expert he selects as his chief advisor. Since Shelby Foote filled that role for the Civil War documentary, it had a distinctly Southern slant. His documentary on jazz, probably because of Wynton Marsalis's influence, is very heavily black-centric (Bill Evans, named in a survey of jazz pianists as the second greatest ever, behind Art Tatum, and as the most influential jazz pianist, is barely mentioned). Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
Getting back to the main point of the thread, I wholeheartedly second the nomination of Coach Troup and would add John Turney and Nick Webster to the list.
#10 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:39 PM
[quote name="rhickok1109" post="38157" timestamp=" Whom he would he choose for pro football? I think Ken Crippen, Coach Troup, or Dr. Z would probably be excellent choices, but he'd probably find someone more like Peter King.[/quote]
uggh
#11 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:41 PM
A documentary on the early days of football is being produced as we speak.
#12 james
Veteran
PFRA Member
951 posts
Gender:Male
Location:San Antonio, Texas
Interests:Music(Iron Maiden & Heavy Metal), NY Giants, Otto Graham, Leo Nomellini, AAFC, Pro Football 1920's-1970's, collecting football cards, collecting and reading football books.
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:48 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 31 Oct 2013 - 7:41 PM, said:
A documentary on the early days of football is being produced as we speak.
Can you tell us more?
#13 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:54 PM
Ken Crippen announced here not long ago the Time Warner Sports of Ohio was filming a documentary on the early days of semi-pro and NFL football around Ohio, Illinois and Western New York.
#14 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:31 PM
Jeffrey Miller, on 31 Oct 2013 - 7:54 PM, said:
Ken Crippen announced here not long ago the Time Warner Sports of Ohio was filming a documentary on the early days of semi-pro and NFL football around Ohio, Illinois and Western New York.
How detailed is it supposed to be. Is it only going to be a one or two hour long episode or will it rival the baseball documentary in length?
#15 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:01 PM
lastcat3, on 31 Oct 2013 - 8:31 PM, said:
How detailed is it supposed to be. Is it only going to be a one or two hour long episode or will it rival the baseball documentary in length?
It is going to be a five-episode series, covering some basics before 1869, but really starting in 1869 (Princeton v. Rutgers). The series would cover topics going through 1935. From the volume of questions they were going to ask me for each episode, my guess is that they will be hour episodes. I am not sure why they picked 1935 as the end point.
#16 lastcat3
Veteran
Forum Visitors
668 posts
Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:14 PM
Ken Crippen, on 31 Oct 2013 - 9:01 PM, said:
It is going to be a five-episode series, covering some basics before 1869, but really starting in 1869 (Princeton v. Rutgers). The series would cover topics going through 1935. From the volume of questions they were going to ask me for each episode, my guess is that they will be hour episodes. I am not sure why they picked 1935 as the end point.
1935 would be about the time when the nfl started becoming a little more structured wasn't it? Before that wasn't it pretty much just a here today gone tomorrow type of league?
Are they going to be airing it on t.v.?
#17 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:23 PM
I'll watch. Its not Warren Sapp A Football Life, after all.
#18 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:57 AM
lastcat3, on 31 Oct 2013 - 9:14 PM, said:
1935 would be about the time when the nfl started becoming a little more structured wasn't it? Before that wasn't it pretty much just a here today gone tomorrow type of league?
Are they going to be airing it on t.v.?
They continued to get more structured from their inception. However, I do not see 1935 as being a landmark year in the NFL.
It will be on TV, but it will probably be local to Ohio and probably Western New York.
#19 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:05 AM
I am told that it will air in the fall of 2014. Several members here have been involved ... Chris Willis (Columbus Panhandles), John Steffenhagen (Rochester Jeffereson), etc.
#20 NWebster
Veteran
Forum Visitors
796 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Philadelphia, PA
Interests:Defensive FB Stats, Special Teams Performances, Heavy Metal Music, Fitness
Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:44 AM
Ken Crippen, on 01 Nov 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:
They continued to get more structured from their inception. However, I do not see 1935 as being a landmark year in the NFL.
It will be on TV, but it will probably be local to Ohio and probably Western New York.
Not sure the copyright implications, but it would be nice for PFRA members to be able to see it.
Page 1 of 2
oldecapecod 11
A football documentary to the depth of Ken Burns baseball would be a great thing
Started by lastcat3, Oct 30 2013 11:13 PM
Page 2 of 2
#21 Ken Crippen
Administrator
Root Admin
979 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:48 AM
NWebster, on 01 Nov 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:
Not sure the copyright implications, but it would be nice for PFRA members to be able to see it.
Since PFRA members are involved both in front of the camera and behind the camera, I would hope that something could be worked out.
#22 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:02 AM
I don't know yet if it will be available for retail purchase. I will see what I can find out and post here.
#23 BD Sullivan
All-Decade
Forum Visitors
3,625 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:26 AM
1933 is where many almanacs, etc. start listing NFL Champions, so it's fairly close to that.
#24 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:17 PM
At one time, the 1934 NFL Championship Game, the Sneakers Game, was thought of in similar ways to the 1958 championship game later on. As influential in popularizing pro football in its day
1935 would also be just a couple of years after the size of the football was changed from the old blimp ball.
I believe the Orange Bowl began maybe the year before, so the bowl games were becoming plural.
The first Heisman Trophy handed out in 1935.
The NFL had their first real challenge opposition league.
So 1935 might be a good cut-off between the old drop kicking single wing no substitution days and the beginning of the more modern football days.
#25 ohiofootball
Rookie
PFRA Member
2 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:45 PM
I have team photos of early Canton, Ohio football teams such as 1907 Cohen Tigers, 1908 Cohen Tigers, 1909 Simpson Tigers, 1912 Canton Professionals, Canton Nut Shell Indians, plus other early Massillon, Shelby images if needed for this documentary.
#26 Bob Gill
Pro Bowler
PFRA Member
1,200 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:57 PM
luckyshow, on 01 Nov 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:
The first Heisman Trophy handed out in 1935.
The NFL had their first real challenge opposition league.
Are you talking about the 1936-37 AFL? I'm very fond of that league, but it didn't pose anything like the challenge from the 1926 AFL.
#27 Jeffrey Miller
Veteran
PFRA Member
756 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Western New York
Interests:Buffalo Pro Football History
1920s NFL
1960s AFL
Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:44 PM
No plans to make available to the general public.
#28 luckyshow
Starter
Forum Visitors
360 posts
Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:44 PM
Yes, 1936 AFL. I just mentioned it as maybe a reason 1935 was the cut off. I always thought the first AFL was mainly to get the NFL to allow a couple of teams to join in a merger of sorts. Not to form a permanent AFL.
What is not available to the public?
#29 Moran
Starter
PFRA Member
338 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:03 AM
Ken Burns was coming to our town to speak in a library series last year so I sent him a book about the town and added in some football teasers, like a copy of a program from a 1927 banquet for Hinkey Haines given by the MLB Yankees and the NFL Giants - http://hapmoran.org/wordpress/?p=81
I suggested he should consider a football documentary - I didn't get a reply but hearing him speak I think it would be like asking the Pope to do a film on Martin Luther - he reads the story of baseball like holy writ.
#30 Bryan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
662 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:20 PM
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
#31 SixtiesFan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
524 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:14 PM
Bryan, on 06 Nov 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
I've got "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith" laying around somewhere. As I recall, it featured Hugh McElhenny and Y.A. Tittle.
#32 SixtiesFan
Veteran
Forum Visitors
524 posts
Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:06 PM
Bryan, on 06 Nov 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:
Somewhat unrelated, but awhile back (late-70's I think), NFL Films produced two videos about the early days of pro football. One was called "Old Leather", the other was "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith". I've always wanted to add these to my NFL Films collectoin...has anyone seen either of these films?
I just dug out my copy of "Their Deeds and Dogged Faith." It was written, produced, and directed by Steve Sabol with Sam Spence's music and John Facenda's narration. It came out in 1977, NFL Films as it was then.
It starts with a brief segment on Hugh McElhenny, then a longer one on Gale Sayers. Next comes Y.A. Tittle's pursuit of a championship. Tittle is compared to Captain Ahab.
Finally, George Halas is portrayed as the inventor of pro football. The film is about 23 minutes long, a lot of good footage.
#33 3243
Starter
Forum Visitors
301 posts
Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:03 AM
26554, on 31 Oct 2013 - 6:40 PM, said:
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
As a jazz fan myself, I also would have liked for more attention to be paid to non-black jazz musicians as well as to black ones, and I also feel the '60s and '70s were treated shabbily. Jazz fusion was very popular at one time, and there was also the loft jazz scene in New York City at the time. Also I would have appreciated the mentioning of the jazz avant garde of the period, which included more than free jazz, and such maverick figures as Sun Ra.
#34 nicefellow31
Starter
PFRA Member
344 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Neport News, Virginia
Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:46 AM
26554, on 31 Oct 2013 - 6:40 PM, said:
Evans should've gotten more notice, but the 'black-centric' thing didn't bother me too much (this is Jazz we're talking about, after all). I would note it wasn't just white/caucasian artists who gotten little to no mention. Dinah Washington, to name one, wasn't mentioned at all. What really bothered me (though it shouldn't have been much of a surprise, given what's known about Wynton) was that they acted like Jazz pretty much ceased to exist after the early-mid 60's...until, of course, Wynton came along with his debut album in 1981. In particular, Miles Davis's electric period is treated very shabbily. Again, no surprise, given that it's well known that Wynton and Miles' didn't exactly see eye to eye on things. Wynton's a very talented musician and he's entitled to his views on the subject, but it would've been nice if Branford had gotten more air-time to balance things out. I would say though that the doc is still worth watching, even with its' flaws.
Getting back to the main point of the thread, I wholeheartedly second the nomination of Coach Troup and would add John Turney and Nick Webster to the list.
Well this is a little of topic but I agree 100% with your thoughts on Wynton Marsalis. He always come across like some type of "Jazz Snob" and I've often wondered if his attitude turned away potential fans.
Page 2 of 2