Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good

Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby rebelx24 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:03 pm

TanksAndSpartans wrote:
rebelx24 wrote:Dilweg, Lewellen, Emerson, and Wistert, as well as a number of others like Riley Matheson, Ken Kavanaugh, Jim Benton, and Bruno Banducci, all deserve more discussion than they’ve received to this point. Seems like the hall really needed to get more of these guys in within its first two decades of existence, and the fact that they didn’t represented a real failure.


I would take it even further - the HOF isn't a branch of the NFL - no reason 1920 has to be a starting point - Neft's encyclopedia lists 1892. No reason not to discuss Ted Nesser for example. My guess is right now a subset of the committee may have an interest in the history of the game, but it isn't enough - seems like the majority is voting for players they saw at best and at worst there's some influence peddling going on. Anyone have a link to the committee? Is there overlap between this year and the annual senior committee voters? Regardless, I think the right committee could be assembled. The college football HOF has lots of historic players - its not impossible.


All sounds good to me.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:14 pm

I bolded cases where I think voters voted for a super senior other than Slater. I really don't recognize many names though: Who am I missing? Are any of these voters known football historians? Four votes isn't going to get it done - if they really wanted to have a committee focussing on the early history of the game, the first step would be to identify people with an interest.

Ernie Accorsi – Longtime Pro Football Executive
Bill Belichick – New England Patriots Head Coach (maybe, seems to be interested in history)
Jarrett Bell – Hall of Fame Selector, USA Today
Joel Bussert – Former NFL Executive, Pro Football Historian
John Clayton – Hall of Fame Selector, The Washington Post
Frank Cooney – Hall of Fame Selector, Sports XChange
John Czarnecki – Hall of Fame Selector, FOX Sports
Rick Gosselin – Hall of Fame Selector, Talk of Fame Network Yes
Elliott Harrison – Pro Football Historian and Long-time TV Analyst
Joe Horrigan – Retired Pro Football Hall of Fame Executive, Football Historian Yes
Ira Kaufman – Hall of Fame Selector, JoeBucsFan.com
Dick LeBeau – Pro Football Hall of Fame cornerback, Longtime NFL coach
Jeff Legwold – Hall of Fame Selector, ESPN/ESPN.com
John Madden – Pro Football Hall of Fame Coach
John McClain – Hall of Fame Selector, Houston Chronicle
Gary Myers – Hall of Fame Selector, The Athletic
Ozzie Newsome – Pro Football Hall of Fame tight end, EVP Baltimore Ravens
Sal Paolantonio – Hall of Fame Selector, Senior National Correspondent - ESPN
Carl Peterson – Longtime Pro Football Executive
Bill Polian – Pro Football Hall of Fame Contributor
Dan Pompei – Hall of Fame Selector, The Athletic
Charean Williams – Hall of Fame Selector, Pro Football Talk
Chris Willis – Producer- Head of Research Library - NFL Films, Football Historian Yes
Barry Wilner – Hall of Fame Selector, Associated Press
Ron Wolf – Pro Football Hall of Fame Contributor
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby rebelx24 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:33 pm

sheajets wrote: Covert played 6 full seasons. 1987 and 1988 he played 9 games. 2x Pro Bowler. 2 time all pro. That's good. That's not enough for the Hall of Fame.


To be fair to Covert, he actually had three first-team all-pros plus one second-team selection, which is not bad. One problem for him, of course, is the injury-shortened career. Was what he did on the field enough to make up for that? When you start looking for comparable players, the nearest guy is Tony Boselli, who I get the sense was better and I think has a decent shot to make it eventually. Boselli also has three first-team all-pros and one second-team, but three more pro bowl appearances (although you can certainly argue that Covert might have deserved a couple more than he got). They both made all-decade teams, although as I noted, I don't think Covert deserved to (I could go either way on Boselli's selection, with Lomas Brown representing the closest competition for that tackle spot; Boselli had a higher peak, but Brown played longer and had more "career value" overall).

Boselli is always heralded as a guy who had the talent to be one of the best all time if he'd been able to stay healthy. Was Covert that type of player, or merely a very good one? Seeing video documentation of these guys' play, side by side, would be revealing in that regard.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby Andy Piascik » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:45 pm

Covert was 1st team all-NFC in 1987, not first team all-pro. His only first team all-pro seasons were 1985 and 1986.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby JameisLoseston » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 pm

Totally agree with this thread. Breaking news: Pro Football Hall of Fame faced with allegations of sexually assaulting pooch. It wasn't all bad, of course, but not at all what I hoped for when seeing this finalist roster. Neither Dilweg nor Lewellen, I mean God damn!! I think they're just too preoccupied with satisfying the demands of players who are still alive rather than actually making the right picks. The nominees list was nothing more than lip service. It's all politics and I'm never going to believe differently at this point. Still doesn't explain why they hate Gradishar though.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby rebelx24 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:31 pm

Andy Piascik wrote:Covert was 1st team all-NFC in 1987, not first team all-pro. His only first team all-pro seasons were 1985 and 1986.


By George, you're right! And it turns out there's a bit of a problem: it's not particularly easy to see this info on pro-football-reference anymore. I remember when a player's all-pro honors, listed at the bottom of his page, used to be marked as being all-NFL or all-conference. I noticed they had changed that at some point in the relatively recent past and merely assumed (wrongly, it turns out) that they stopped including all-conference honors (which I don't typically find very useful) and were only displaying all-NFL selections. So it's actually the same as before, but now they're not even marked to distinguish them from each other; one actually has to click through to a given year's all-pro page to see the all-NFL/all-conference breakdown. While we're on the subject of screwing the pooch, that site did just that by making such a stupid change. I think it's worth messaging them about this. Totally unhelpful.

So yeah, Covert's profile actually consists of just two first-team selections and one second-team pick in 1987 (the honor he got in 1990 was merely second team all-conference and doesn't count, for my money). Already far less impressive. For the record, the thing on Boselli's resume that I thought was second-team all-pro was merely second-team all-conference, so he's a bit lighter on overall postseason honors as well, but he still has a leg up on Covert, and the gap is even wider.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby Andy Piascik » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:09 pm

TanksAndSpartans wrote:I bolded cases where I think voters voted for a super senior other than Slater. I really don't recognize many names though: Who am I missing? Are any of these voters known football historians? Four votes isn't going to get it done - if they really wanted to have a committee focussing on the early history of the game, the first step would be to identify people with an interest.

Ernie Accorsi – Longtime Pro Football Executive
Bill Belichick – New England Patriots Head Coach (maybe, seems to be interested in history)
Jarrett Bell – Hall of Fame Selector, USA Today
Joel Bussert – Former NFL Executive, Pro Football Historian
John Clayton – Hall of Fame Selector, The Washington Post
Frank Cooney – Hall of Fame Selector, Sports XChange
John Czarnecki – Hall of Fame Selector, FOX Sports
Rick Gosselin – Hall of Fame Selector, Talk of Fame Network Yes
Elliott Harrison – Pro Football Historian and Long-time TV Analyst
Joe Horrigan – Retired Pro Football Hall of Fame Executive, Football Historian Yes
Ira Kaufman – Hall of Fame Selector, JoeBucsFan.com
Dick LeBeau – Pro Football Hall of Fame cornerback, Longtime NFL coach
Jeff Legwold – Hall of Fame Selector, ESPN/ESPN.com
John Madden – Pro Football Hall of Fame Coach
John McClain – Hall of Fame Selector, Houston Chronicle
Gary Myers – Hall of Fame Selector, The Athletic
Ozzie Newsome – Pro Football Hall of Fame tight end, EVP Baltimore Ravens
Sal Paolantonio – Hall of Fame Selector, Senior National Correspondent - ESPN
Carl Peterson – Longtime Pro Football Executive
Bill Polian – Pro Football Hall of Fame Contributor
Dan Pompei – Hall of Fame Selector, The Athletic
Charean Williams – Hall of Fame Selector, Pro Football Talk
Chris Willis – Producer- Head of Research Library - NFL Films, Football Historian Yes
Barry Wilner – Hall of Fame Selector, Associated Press
Ron Wolf – Pro Football Hall of Fame Contributor


Willis is an A+ historian. Bussert is good, too. Can't speak about all of the media people but some that I've corresponded with are knowledgeable and open to input if it's well done. My best guess is that most of the media people listed here are overwhelmingly focused on the here and now and primarily interested only as far back as their football memories go. Unfortunately, I think the same is true of the front office executives. Accorsi dropped out somewhere along the way and was replaced by Gil Brandt. I've corresponded with Accorsi a number of times over the years and he definitely had a good feel for football history going way, way back before his own personal experience of it. I don't know how much any one person would have made a difference but I think Accorsi dropping out was a setback for Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert, Lewellen, etc.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:44 pm

Thanks Andy - appreciate hearing your first-hand experiences. 25 is a lot of voters and the array of players to choose from spanned a lot of years, a player like Roger Craig was barely eligible. I'd like to see them every couple of years have a focused committee, maybe focus on the 20s one year with a smaller group of some of the true historians like the ones you mentioned.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby boknows34 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:02 pm

The thing as well with Boselli that sways in his favour over Covert are his honours were achieved during the era of Ogden, Roaf, Pace and Walter Jones. He had a much higher peak and much tougher competition compared to Covert’s era imo.
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Re: Sorry, but they screwed the pooch

Postby JohnTurney » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:48 pm

Some info I've gotten, taken it for what it's worth

essentially, Carmichael a "skill set" winner over Pearson. He again "changed the game" :?
because Eagles had ppor un game and he was "one of first" to run fades to the corner
thus "being a pioneer" because teams didn't do that in goalline, (call that 10-yards and
in) mot good teams with good running game would usually pound it in, not risk a pass
in those situations. Eagles could run it in (Sullivan Montgomery, I guess) sp they'd use
the "weapon" that no one had seen before.

So, yeah.

he's tall. Got it.
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