Frank Gore - HOfer?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I don't like the Baines analogy - Baines' career wasn't exceptionally long for his position and he didn't accumulate anything exceptional statistically - I think he just got in because he had his supporters. Gore's case is much more interesting - a lot of RBs are unceremoniously cut around 30 - its not easy to make it that far up the rushing yardage list. I don't ever think Gore was an MVP candidate, but I think he put up around 1,000 yards pretty consistently. Baines never had 200 hits, 30 homers, or 120 RBI.

[conace21]

I don't like the Baines analogy - Baines' career wasn't exceptionally long for his position and he didn't accumulate anything exceptional statistically - I think he just got in because he had his supporters. Gore's case is much more interesting - a lot of RBs are unceremoniously cut around 30 - its not easy to make it that far up the rushing yardage list. I don't ever think Gore was an MVP candidate, but I think he put up around 1,000 yards pretty consistently. Baines never had 200 hits, 30 homers, or 120 RBI.

Gore is more like the Charlie Joiner of running backs. I think Joiner was the all time receptions leader when he retired, though that didn't last long. But even in his prime Chargers years, he was the 2nd or 3rd best receiver (counting Winslow) on his own team, let alone the league.
As Pro Football Chronicle wrote about Joiner, "Does being very good for a long time make you great?"
Gore had one elite season, which would have earned him All Pro recognition in a different year. As far as comparisons to Bettis, as I said in the prior thread; Bettis was unquestionably the second best RB in the league in 1993. He was arguably second best in 1996, maybe third. He was the third best in 1997. Gore never even reached his level.

[JuggernautJ]

As a long-time 49ers fan I watched Gore play for... a long time.
I can't say that he ever (ever) passed the "eye test" for me.
Not once in all the games I saw him play did I ever sit up and say to myself "Wow! That guy is one of the best to ever play the position!! HE belongs in Canton."

I think the Hall of (the) Very Good is exactly where Gore belongs.
It was made for players like him. Reliably (very) good for a very long time.

And also, as a long-time Niners fan I would be upset and bewildered if Gore went into The Hall while Roger Craig sat on the sidelines. Now there is a back (Craig) who frequently made sensational plays that helped his team win championships.
And he passed said eye test many, many times over the years.
It still makes me excited to see him (on tape) swing out of the backfield to catch a Joe Montana flat pass.

Who won the Championships? Who contributed more to championship teams? Who has the signature plays (e.g. the TD run against the Rams)? The unique style (high knees)? The great seasons (1,000 + 1,000)?

Who would you rather have on your team if you were going for a Championship?
Who belongs in Canton?

[sheajets]

As a long-time 49ers fan I watched Gore play for... a long time.
I can't say that he ever (ever) passed the "eye test" for me.
Not once in all the games I saw him play did I ever sit up and say to myself "Wow! That guy is one of the best to ever play the position!! HE belongs in Canton."

I think the Hall of (the) Very Good is exactly where Gore belongs.
It was made for players like him. Reliably (very) good for a very long time.

And also, as a long-time Niners fan I would be upset and bewildered if Gore went into The Hall while Roger Craig sat on the sidelines. Now there is a back (Craig) who frequently made sensational plays that helped his team win championships.
And he passed said eye test many, many times over the years.
It still makes me excited to see him (on tape) swing out of the backfield to catch a Joe Montana flat pass.

Who won the Championships? Who contributed more to championship teams? Who has the signature plays (e.g. the TD run against the Rams)? The unique style (high knees)? The great seasons (1,000 + 1,000)?

Who would you rather have on your team if you were going for a Championship?
Who belongs in Canton?

Craig had serious talent. Unfortunately people are mentally set on him being something of a system player. Or one that had some talented but really benefited from the Walsh offense that enhanced him. It's not really fair...Craig was an all purpose monster and his play enhanced an already great system. He was an all purpose monster for 7 years. Passes the eye test with me as

As a Jets fan, Freeman McNeil was the poor mans Roger Craig. Though he was far more injury prone. If not McNeil would've had about five 1,000 yard seasons and over 400 receptions for his career out of the backfield

[JohnTurney]

I don't like the Baines analogy - Baines' career wasn't exceptionally long for his position and he didn't accumulate anything exceptional statistically - I think he just got in because he had his supporters. Gore's case is much more interesting - a lot of RBs are unceremoniously cut around 30 - its not easy to make it that far up the rushing yardage list. I don't ever think Gore was an MVP candidate, but I think he put up around 1,000 yards pretty consistently. Baines never had 200 hits, 30 homers, or 120 RBI.

no analogy is perfect, but Gore has one great season (over 1500 yards)

1000 yards for a running back in 16-game season---is like hitting 280 with 17 homer and 80 RBI
1200 is kind of like 290 25-100
1500 is like 320 35 120
2000 is like 350 55 165

like that

so, that kind of how I got to Baines.

[TanksAndSpartans]

OK, I can see that - but there were just 9 1,000 yard rushers last season - not exactly commonplace. My main point was more there's nothing exceptional about Baines - to me 4th all-time in rushing is exceptional. Sure, you can discount it because of how he got there - he accumulated as opposed to having multiple great seasons, but still you can't pick out 30 or so other guys who had careers similar to Gore's and who aren't in the baseball HOF and I suspect a baseball expert (certainly not me) could do that with Baines. I was thinking looking at hits would be a good analogy, but the guys who got up around 3,500 hits are all pretty good.

[JohnTurney]

My main point was more there's nothing exceptional about Baines - to me 4th all-time in rushing is exceptional.

It's exceptional health...but when you have 1 season over 1300 yards---seems a bit more like a compiler to me.

[JohnH19]

3,393 - 14,768 - 4.4 - 77 is a helluva lot of compiling. These numbers are the eye test that counts. Gore has averaged over 1,000 yards per season. If his average carry was 3.7 I'd agree that he was somewhat a compiler but 4.4 is an excellent average. A guy named Payton also averaged 4.4 per carry so it must be pretty damn good.

He has only had one monster season statistically but consistent productivity over a period of 14 seasons is a rare attribute for a running back. He is absolutely a deserving HoFer, especially when compared to some of the guys that have been inducted in the past several years. He certainly wouldn't lower the bar.

Edit: I should add that Gore has not exactly been injury free. He's had several injuries going back to his college days when he tore his ACL twice. A fractured hip also doesn't sound very good. His resilience is another feather in his cap.

[JohnTurney]

3,393 - 14,768 - 4.4 - 77 is a helluva lot of compiling. These numbers are the eye test that counts. Gore has averaged over 1,000 yards per season. If his average carry was 3.7 I'd agree that he was somewhat a compiler but 4.4 is an excellent average. A guy named Payton also averaged 4.4 per carry so it must be pretty damn good.
.

Isn't the point that guy named Payton averaged 88 yards a game (7th all-time) and that ignores all his accolates, 1500+ yard seasons, all-pros, etc. and Gore averages 70.0 yards per game good for 40th all time?

40th? I mean isn't a good definition of compling mean that if you average a decent amoung of yards, say 40th all time, and you can play a long, long time, aren't you going to complite a lot of yards?

I don't think he's bad by any means, he's very good, and I'd guess he gets into the HOF, but not first ballot. But he's not some who is special in terms of "numbers" which is what you are saying counts.

With otehrs who are around him in yards per game had something else that made them stand out, Super Bowls, or MVPs, or All-Pros or were great receivers.

In an era where one back gets the majority of carries----those numbers per game are okay, but nothing like "excellent" I just think a group of researchers on a researchers site should be able to discern between vry good and great, which is what the HOF is supposed to be. Now, we all know, there are some guys in the HOF that may be dubious
but in a discussion about a running back I expect more that just a recitation of his career stats. Anyone can look that up and everyone is aware of them.

The question is the guy great? or very good? If he's great he's HOF, if he's very good then he's HOVG.

I see him are borderline but the least convincing thing there is would be his career totals because that's a function of being fortunate. Guys with higher, much higher peaks were not so lucky, Billy Sims, Preist Holmes, William Andrews ...so I take that into part of the evaluation

Whic his why to me Gore is similar in many ways to Harold Baines

[JohnH19]

3,393 - 14,768 - 4.4 - 77 is a helluva lot of compiling. These numbers are the eye test that counts. Gore has averaged over 1,000 yards per season. If his average carry was 3.7 I'd agree that he was somewhat a compiler but 4.4 is an excellent average. A guy named Payton also averaged 4.4 per carry so it must be pretty damn good.
.

Isn't the point that guy named Payton averaged 88 yards a game (7th all-time) and that ignores all his accolates, 1500+ yard seasons, all-pros, etc. and Gore averages 70.0 yards per game good for 40th all time?

40th? I mean isn't a good definition of compling mean that if you average a decent amoung of yards, say 40th all time, and you can play a long, long time, aren't you going to complite a lot of yards?

I don't think he's bad by any means, he's very good, and I'd guess he gets into the HOF, but not first ballot. But he's not some who is special in terms of "numbers" which is what you are saying counts.

With otehrs who are around him in yards per game had something else that made them stand out, Super Bowls, or MVPs, or All-Pros or were great receivers.

In an era where one back gets the majority of carries----those numbers per game are okay, but nothing like "excellent" I just think a group of researchers on a researchers site should be able to discern between vry good and great, which is what the HOF is supposed to be. Now, we all know, there are some guys in the HOF that may be dubious
but in a discussion about a running back I expect more that just a recitation of his career stats. Anyone can look that up and everyone is aware of them.

The question is the guy great? or very good? If he's great he's HOF, if he's very good then he's HOVG.

I see him are borderline but the least convincing thing there is would be his career totals because that's a function of being fortunate. Guys with higher, much higher peaks were not so lucky, Billy Sims, Preist Holmes, William Andrews ...so I take that into part of the evaluation

Whic his why to me Gore is similar in many ways to Harold Baines

Hi John. I hope you're doing well.

I don't think the fact that Gore has had four less carries per game than Payton did should be used as an argument against him. Seventy yards per game is still tremendous when averaged over a 14 year period. Over a five year period, not so much, but 14 is quite an accomplishment.

When it comes to HoF credentials, I place a lot of weight on a consistent high level of productivity over a long period if a player doesn't have an extremely high peak. I think it's Gore's complete body of work that makes him worthy.

I don't compare Gore to Baines who I feel was an unworthy selection to Cooperstown. I compare Frank to Mike Mussina who only had one 20 win season, in 2008, his last year, when he won exactly 20. Mussina's outstanding career W-L record of 270-153 flew almost completely under the radar of most observers. The Moose finally got voted in this year after being passed over several times.