Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon

[NWebster]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/ ... fl-history

Interesting ESPN article (sorry the whole thing is behind a paywall), heavy on the use of PFF ratings - is that a new partnership?

The following statement interested me the most:
Ultimately, until PFF goes back and grades the older all-time greats, we won't be able to directly compare them to Donald.

At least they acknowledge that they don't know the history, but the statement implies they will go back and re-grade, which I severly doubt would ever happen. And even if they did, I'm not sure you can get game film complete on anything prior to the 90's. Only the ghost of Chuck Noll knows how Joe Greene grades out, or Tom Landry for Bob Lilly.

My current Mt Rushmore is Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page - probably in that order though I struggle to find distance between Lilly and Olsen.

[Rupert Patrick]

And this is why, I worry, that the "All Time 100" team will be polluted with contemporary stars, and less than half of the players on the list will have played before 2000. Somebody will say, "Aaron Donald is number one on the top 100 players this year, you CAN'T leave him off." I fear the sportswriters will by and large overlook the modern receiver's gloves, which I truly believe give today's receivers an unfair advantage, because they'll argue you can't have a list of the greatest wide receivers without Odell Beckham Jr., and they'll go to a medley of his one-handed sideline catches and make some sort of inane comment along the lines of "See! Don Hutson could never have made a catch like that." Because the NFL Network is behind this thing, it will be heavily skewed toward the present.

As far as placing an active player within a historical context as far as a career goes, I find it best to wait until his career is clearly 80 percent of the way over; I prefer to err on the side of caution. At this point, I am comfortable saying Tom Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all time. Aaron Donald is starting his sixth NFL season, he is not quite at that point; I think he is well on his way to the HOF but has not quite passed the Bus test. It is a little premature to be considering him among the half dozen greatest ever at his position. Top 20, probably, top ten, probably not. I would wait a few more years before I make some comment proclaiming him as the best ever at his position and a couple years later having to step it back. Ask me in six more years.

[conace21]

And this is why, I worry, that the "All Time 100" team will be polluted with contemporary stars, and less than half of the players on the list will have played before 2000. Somebody will say, "Aaron Donald is number one on the top 100 players this year, you CAN'T leave him off." I fear the sportswriters will by and large overlook the modern receiver's gloves, which I truly believe give today's receivers an unfair advantage, because they'll argue you can't have a list of the greatest wide receivers without Odell Beckham Jr., and they'll go to a medley of his one-handed sideline catches and make some sort of inane comment along the lines of "See! Don Hutson could never have made a catch like that." Because the NFL Network is behind this thing, it will be heavily skewed toward the present.

As far as placing an active player within a historical context as far as a career goes, I find it best to wait until his career is clearly 80 percent of the way over; I prefer to err on the side of caution. At this point, I am comfortable saying Tom Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all time. Aaron Donald is starting his sixth NFL season, he is not quite at that point; I think he is well on his way to the HOF but has not quite passed the Bus test. It is a little premature to be considering him among the half dozen greatest ever at his position. Top 20, probably, top ten, probably not. I would wait a few more years before I make some comment proclaiming him as the best ever at his position and a couple years later having to step it back. Ask me in six more years.

If Donald had another DPOY- type season, he would at least have an argument for the #5 tackle spot. Thinking about other candidates:
Ernie Stautner
Leo the Lion
Randy White (my personal choice)
Cortez Kennedy
John Randle
Warren Sapp

[JohnTurney]

My current Mt Rushmore is Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page - probably in that order though I struggle to find distance between Lilly and Olsen.

I rank them Lilly, Greene, Olsen, Page. But not much space between them....

I have White at 5----and I am tempted to put Donald 6th right now. In mid-season last year I put him eights (behind Nomellini and Weinmeister)
but the roll he went on the 2nd half and the 2nd Def MVP---I think he has a claim on even 5th

The issue is this: (as always) peak versus career value. Is 5 years enough to put him over White? Certainly White's "peak" was long and was consistent though maybe 1986
and became dominant in 1977. However, as you know, his combination of sacks and stuffs is best all-time for a DT...on an average per year basis.

So, his "peak" is similar in some ways to Watt (pre-injury)...In my opinion Donald's peak is every bit as good as any of the Rushmore guys. He was stellar from rookie year on and keeps getting better. His game is more similar to Lilly or Page than Greene or Olsen... and maybe not even Lilly and Page were as consistently good, play per play as Donald.

So, right now, I'd rank them Lilly, Greene, Olsen, Page, White and then Donald, then Leo then Arnie. But White never won a DPOY, if awards matter.

I think if Donald keeps up a 10-sack 10-stuff career average for the next 2-3 years he overtakes White. White could be moved, though, Art Donovan mentioned this. And I've not seen Donald blocked consistenty and moved back, skill set-wise I don't know that any DT has more than Donald. QUickness, strength, use of hands, quick feet, technique.

[JohnTurney]

Ernie Stautner
Leo the Lion
Randy White (my personal choice)
Cortez Kennedy
John Randle
Warren Sapp

Ernie Stautner--------------------------------------Not that good, not a top-10 guy
Leo the Lion----------------------------------------dominant in his era
Randy White (my personal choice)-------------consistently good for a long time (10-year peak), a worthy #5 guy
Cortez Kennedy -----------------------------------overrated in my opinion, a high top 10 guy. not a top 5 guy
John Randle----------------------------------------one dimensional
Warren Sapp---------------------------------------one dimensional

[sheajets]

The new sticky gloves irritate me to no end. And I understand that players at all positions across all eras have always looked to get an edge one way or another. We all remember stickum. But these gloves cheapen things to such an insane degree. We have had such an explosion in circus catches since they were introduced. And of course the league won't do anything about it because it makes social media explode when one happens and gets the league "trending". It's been a while since I've been truly awestruck by a great one handed reception simply because we have like 10+ a week

Donald is right on the cusp of being there, but as Rupert said he hasn't even entered season 6. 4x All Pro. 2x DPOY. I just want to see one more year of him being who he is and then he can be in the conversation regarding his place in the pantheon.

[JohnTurney]

I just want to see one more year of him being who he is and then he can be in the conversation regarding his place in the pantheon.

I think that is fair. In this era, 6, maybe 7 years should be minimum. When I picked Hekker and Tucker, I used 7 as kind of a minimum, but also granted that rankings are fluid and if someone is in pantheon now...does not mean they stay. They could tail off, or be overtaken

[lastcat3]

It's much better to compare eras in baseball than it is in football. Baseball has remained relatively the same game for over a hundred years now where as football seems to change significantly each fifteen to twenty years. Currently in football I think it is only fair to compare teams from about the year '2000 to the present. Prior to that I'd say '99 to '78. Then probably '77 to the mid to late '50's.

[bachslunch]

It's much better to compare eras in baseball than it is in football. Baseball has remained relatively the same game for over a hundred years now where as football seems to change significantly each fifteen to twenty years. Currently in football I think it is only fair to compare teams from about the year '2000 to the present. Prior to that I'd say '99 to '78. Then probably '77 to the mid to late '50's.

The reason one can compare eras in baseball is that there are advanced metrics that work well for it. Raw stats are a different story -- they don't work well for this purpose.

Football is more hit or miss on this, though there have been attempts to do so.

[Rupert Patrick]

The new sticky gloves irritate me to no end. And I understand that players at all positions across all eras have always looked to get an edge one way or another. We all remember stickum. But these gloves cheapen things to such an insane degree. We have had such an explosion in circus catches since they were introduced. And of course the league won't do anything about it because it makes social media explode when one happens and gets the league "trending". It's been a while since I've been truly awestruck by a great one handed reception simply because we have like 10+ a week

Donald is right on the cusp of being there, but as Rupert said he hasn't even entered season 6. 4x All Pro. 2x DPOY. I just want to see one more year of him being who he is and then he can be in the conversation regarding his place in the pantheon.

The league cannot ban the gloves at this point, as they did stickum, because the Players Union would fight back. The Union would counter that it would hurt the statistics (read: future salaries) of wide receivers if you ban them because they won't catch as many passes as they would without the gloves. Also, it will hurt the statistics of quarterbacks because their passing statistics will also decrease due to the increase in dropped passes.