The BLM business decision

Re: The BLM business decision

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:23 am

RyanChristiansen wrote:During the Rams' first-ever preseason game, the College All-Star Game at Soldier Field in Chicago, in a third-string backup quarterback role Washington threw an interception and was sacked for a safety. In their first exhibition game in Los Angeles, Washington only threw one incomplete pass.

SOURCE: Atwood, Gretchen. 2016. Lost Champions: Four Men, Two Teams, and the Breaking of Pro Football's Color Line. New York: Bloomsbury.

After that, he played halfback. I don't think he played quarterback in any non-exhibition games.


Thanks Ryan. I did not know about that preseason game. I think it comes down to the PCFL. Does it count as pro? If so, I think I'd give it to Washington.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby rhickok1109 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:47 am

RyanChristiansen wrote:
TanksAndSpartans wrote:
RyanChristiansen wrote:That's like saying we can never talk about the tensions that were around Kenny Washington's signing with the Rams or Marion Motley's signing with the Browns.


Don't see many of those types of discussions here. I was just wondering about Washington the other day in terms of the first black QB. Reading Taliaferro's bio and a CC article by Bob Gill is discussed. In looking at old programs on eBay, it looked like Washington was known as a passer in the PCFL. Just not sure who the first pro black QB was - I'm not a buyer on Pollard, who I think of as a wingback. Talieferro says its not himself. Did he really write a CC article? So was wondering about Washington.


During the Rams' first-ever preseason game, the College All-Star Game at Soldier Field in Chicago, in a third-string backup quarterback role Washington threw an interception and was sacked for a safety. In their first exhibition game in Los Angeles, Washington only threw one incomplete pass.

SOURCE: Atwood, Gretchen. 2016. Lost Champions: Four Men, Two Teams, and the Breaking of Pro Football's Color Line. New York: Bloomsbury.

After that, he played halfback. I don't think he played quarterback in any non-exhibition games.

I saw Taliaferro play against the Packers several times. first with the N.Y. Yanks in 1950 and for the last time with the Baltimore Colts in 1954. The only time he could have been considered a QB was when he took a few snaps as the tailback in a spread formation with the Dallas Texans in 1952, when he did throw a couple of passes. The Texans never used the T formation in that game. I also remember him throwing a halfback option pass from the T formation but I'm not sure what game that was.

Deciding who's the QB when you're not talking about the T formation is tricky. Johnny Blood was often listed as the QB in the Packer lineup simply because he called the plays, but he was usually the wingback or the tailback. Similarly, Dutch Clark was actually a tailback, but in Coach Potsy Clark's terminology, he was called the QB.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby RyanChristiansen » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:58 pm

rhickok1109 wrote:I saw Taliaferro play against the Packers several times. first with the N.Y. Yanks in 1950 and for the last time with the Baltimore Colts in 1954. The only time he could have been considered a QB was when he took a few snaps as the tailback in a spread formation with the Dallas Texans in 1952, when he did throw a couple of passes. The Texans never used the T formation in that game. I also remember him throwing a halfback option pass from the T formation but I'm not sure what game that was.

Deciding who's the QB when you're not talking about the T formation is tricky. Johnny Blood was often listed as the QB in the Packer lineup simply because he called the plays, but he was usually the wingback or the tailback. Similarly, Dutch Clark was actually a tailback, but in Coach Potsy Clark's terminology, he was called the QB.


USA Today ran this graphic a few years ago. I don't know whether Lillard and Taliaferro count as quarterbacks. Or can you count them as quarterbacks in the "sense" of a quarterback? (As opposed to using their position names.)
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby JWL » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:28 pm

The Giants, of course, have since joined the club when he started a game a couple years ago.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:46 pm

Ralph, always nice to have some eyewitness testimony. I liked watching Taliaferro's highlights which drew me to his bio. I thought he may be in the HOVG, but there were a lot of good backs to choose from at that time.

Totally agree about the single-wing. Friedman was a tailback too. I'm fine with using the passing statistics available to determine who a team's passer was and then saying that player was in the QB role.

Ryan, thanks for that graphic. I didn't consider Lillard, but I just looked at his PFR card and maybe he was the first black QB. PFR is showing him with 12 starts over two seasons, one with 28 pass attempts, one with 67. We may have to get Bob G. to chime in. Lillard I would think was more significant than Willie Thrower, but not sure how we should count him.

With Pollard, my understanding is he was mostly a wingback and played QB for some of the later teams he coached when he wasn't playing regularly. The thing of it was, the QB in the s-w didn't really take snaps unless it was a trick play or something, so he wouldn't have been passing even if he was calling signals.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby RyanChristiansen » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:50 pm

TanksAndSpartans wrote:I didn't consider Lillard, but I just looked at his PFR card and maybe he was the first black QB. PFR is showing him with 12 starts over two seasons, one with 28 pass attempts, one with 67. We may have to get Bob G. to chime in. Lillard I would think was more significant than Willie Thrower, but not sure how we should count him.


The first mention I could find of Lillard playing football in 1932, he was playing halfback, and the last mention I could find in 1933, it says he was the star halfback for the Cardinals. PFREF lists him as tailback. I guess it boils down to whether or not he was playing quarterback in the spirit of how we now see that position.
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The BLM business decision

Postby James » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm

The NFL and all sports should stay out of politics, there's no place for it. They are just trying to look good in the media is how I see it. The Redskins changing their name is also sad. Before anyone starts, I'm Jewish and had some relatives in the camps during the War, but to me, politics and sports don't belong together.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby RyanChristiansen » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:12 pm

James wrote:The NFL and all sports should stay out of politics, there's no place for it. They are just trying to look good in the media is how I see it. The Redskins changing their name is also sad. Before anyone starts, I'm Jewish and had some relatives in the camps during the War, but to me, politics and sports don't belong together.


Well, then, shouldn't you be calling for the national anthem to be removed from being played at NFL events?

It was the media who inserted politics into the NFL. Colin Kaepernick quietly and unobtrusively protested standing for the anthem by remaining seated on the bench. Nobody noticed until the third preseason game, and afterward the media asked him about it, and he answered, honestly. Of course, the media machine wouldn't leave it at that, and eventually the President wanted the attention Kaepernick was getting, so he tweeted about it. (If you think there is any other reason for the President's tweets, you need to back up your reason with some sort of evidence, because we all know the guy is an attention whore.) That cemented the marriage between politics and the NFL. And because the NFL is a business, whenever the NFL makes a political decision, it is also a business decision. I believe the NFL recognized they would not be able to remove politics from their sport so long as politicians choose to get involved, so they decided to side with their own employees instead of with politicians. Not all owners are handling it well. I believe Jerry Jones is having a fit over Dontari Poe kneeling during the anthem because he feels he is losing control of Poe or because he is concerned about fan reaction and the bottom line. In my opinion, based on what I know about politics in Texas, Dontari Poe should have taken a knee while draping himself in the state flag of Texas; he might have won some admiration.

Yes, politics is in sports, and there are many examples of it over the years, including the 1936 Summer Olympics where Hitler banned Jews from competing for Germany and where Jewish athletes from other nations boycotted the games. Meanwhile, Jesse Owens, a black athlete, bravely competed and won the gold medal in Nazi Germany. It was one big political show.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like politics mixed with sports, either. I watch football to escape. But I'm looking at this with a cold, calculating eye and trying to understand things from a business standpoint. I don't support athletes kneeling or doing anything, really, because I don't think it accomplishes anything but give attention to politicians who like to use the spectacle to their political advantage, and that includes all politicians.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby Bryan » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:37 am

RyanChristiansen wrote:Well, then, shouldn't you be calling for the national anthem to be removed from being played at NFL events?


That probably would have been the best action for Roger Goodall to take in response to the Kaepernick situation.
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Re: The BLM business decision

Postby Ken Crippen » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:33 am

I apologize for being late to this discussion. I am going to close this down to keep politics off the board. This has not escalated yet, but I fear that it will and we want to keep the discussion to football and football history. Thank you.
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